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[thehonorableryu]

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God

Comments

[policraticus]

We need to be born of the spirit because our own spirits are dead to God by virtue of our sin.

Had we never sinned then our spirits would be alive, even as Adam's was alive in Eden when he walked and spoke with God.

[thehonorableryu]

I believe you're right on each point, brother. :)

But does being "born again" mean that our spirits are returned only to their original created state prior to the fall? Were Adam and Eve walking in the kingdom of God prior to the fall?

Part of what I want to draw out is what is being "born again" and what is the "kingdom of God" according to scriptural revelation.

[policraticus]

Now you are above my pay grade. : )

[thehonorableryu]

Fair enough. :)

But do you feel that we cannot at least address these kinds of questions because the meanings of phrases like "born again" and "kingdom of God" are not revealed fully enough in scripture to do so?

[thehonorableryu]

I actually believe that it is well within the divine revelation, dear brother.

[thehonorableryu]

Do you believe that the tree of life is a symbol of God in His desire to work Himself as the eternal life into humanity? Or was it some kind of entity apart from God that would have granted Adam and Eve eternal life if they ate of it?

If you say yes to the former, brother, then there is a sense in which--even if Adam and Eve had not sinned--there was something that they needed from the beginning.

They were created neutral to both death (independence from God, symbolized by the tree of knowledge of good and evil) and life (absolute dependence upon God as one's life and everything, as symbolized by the tree of life). Even if they had not eaten from the tree that would kill them, they still needed to eat the tree of life so that they would be born of Him by grace, that He would become eternal life within them, bearing fruit for His glory and expression.

Of course, they ate from the wrong tree, but God in His multifarious wisdom worked something out that is surpassing in glory. :D

Blessed are those who wash their robes that they

[sybbis]

I think that's an invalid hypothetical; I don't think it could have happened. It's in humanity's nature to sin. I don't think that's *because* Adam sinned; I think it's because we've been given the ability to choose. It can't be a choice if you have to choose the right way. So, it never could have been otherwise.

[napoleonofnerds]

We could have chosen not to sin, originally. Before we became creatures touched by sin we were perfectly free to choose either way.

[catholic_heart]

In the state before the Fall, the state of original innocence, it was not our nature to sin. I understand what you're saying, it seems almost impossible to envision man not falling, but sin didn't become human nature until it was chosen in the first place. It was after that that every human was born into an entirely different state, a state of original sinfulness.

[napoleonofnerds]

But don't tell the Orthodox.

[napoleonofnerds]

I agree with Tutal. I'm inclined to say no, but the answer to that question is outside revelation.

[thehonorableryu]

Then let me rephrase the question this way:

In Genesis, Adam and Eve were originally created as "very good." But do you believe that there was something else in addition to being created that they specifically needed to receive from God if they were to fulfill His ultimate purpose for creating humanity? If so, what would that be?

(I believe the answer is clearly revealed in scripture, but often overlooked.) :)

[napoleonofnerds]

I understood the question perfectly well the first time, and my answer is still that anything I could say would be a mix of intuition and speculation, because there is no revelation on the subject.

[napoleonofnerds]

If you have an answer, just say what it is.

[forensicgirl]

Nope. I was born okay the first time, thanks. I don't do Adam and Eve or "Original Sin".

[thehonorableryu]

But I am asking:

Even if there was not a fall or "original sin" would we still need to be "born again" to see the "kingdom of God" according to scripture? :)

[forensicgirl]

Again, I say nope. But then I'm one of those wacky Christians who don't see the Bible as inerrant. *shrug* Good questions, at any rate.

[forensicgirl]

To put it another way, I disagree with what Scripture says. Technically, Scripture says yes. I say no.