It's been a while since someone has challenged God in this community, but I don't have much to offer in that respect, so I'll continue in the way it's been going until someone does otherwise
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Not really. Exclusivity is only a part of the love He desires from us.
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might ~De 6:5
Another part is the choice to love.
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." ~Jos 24:15
"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. ~Jer 31:31,32
Well, I have always been taught that god desires a relationship with us. If that is the case, it's hard to have a relationship with someone if you aren't actually sure that they even exist...
Yes, but this post is directed at those people who have said they would never serve or worship God, even if His existence was proven. A relationship, in such a case, won't happen either way.
No reason that I can think of. I don't need to prove my existence to a stranger on the opposite side of the world, so why would God need to prove his existence to me?
Given that, according to the mainstream tenets of the Christian faith:
God created humans, flaws, doubts and all God demands faithful obedience from humans God has decreed that those who don't believe will be tormented for all eternity
Therefore it seems to me he has a moral obligation to lay the facts on the table, and conclusively prove himself. Otherwise we can only assume he created humans as they are in order to torment them for all eternity. And if you are going to plead free will, then I counter that forcing an uninformed choice on a being predisposed to seek proof is essentially no choice at all.
Well, first off, that is, I think, a rather different question than the one you first posted. You asked why the Christian God, if some being did exist under those parameters, should prove his existence to me
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Well, first off, that is, I think, a rather different question than the one you first posted. You asked why the Christian God, if some being did exist under those parameters, should prove his existence to me.
I asked specifically as a follow-up to the statement that, should the Christian God prove His existence, the reader would not serve or worship Him. In your case, I took your actual response to one of my original posts. So that is exactly what I'm asking.
Yeah, pretty much what you said.
So - assuming the Christian God exists - it would serve no real purpose to prove it to you.
This is actually an interesting question, not so much in the subject matter as it has been routinely discussed for its most basic level, but rather in the way it has been worded
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It becomes more obvious the more you look at the big picture.
Your view eliminates Christianity. If the Christian God actually exists, your conclusion cannot be true.
So how do you qualify your own personal experience in either an objective or subjective manner as truth?
Frankly, my conversion began as a matter of utility. My trust in Jesus is entirely personal in nature, not an abstraction. There isn't anything I would offer others as some kind of acceptable qualifier.
The only way it could be untrue was if the sum total/whole of God was in fact entirely contained within the pages of the bible.
Not the sum total or whole, since that would be unscriptural, but enough revelation that makes God's essential personality unique and opposed to your worldview.
How we choose to perceive it is the result of our own personal limitations, however it does not change the real essence of the matter at hand, be it God or infinity.
However, if God personally chose to reveal enough of His essence that one can distinguish it from religious falsehood, then personal limitation - or, conversely, personal openness - is irrelevant to the fact.
it should be recognized here that there is a lot more going on than a strictly limited religious viewpoint will allow and indeed there is an abundance of subject matters and questions that remain unanswered because of it.You shouldn't view this in such black and white terms. One does not automatically assume all questions are answered merely because one accepts the revelation
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Yes, I mean the Christian God.
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Exodus 34:14
"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 32:16
"They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols."
Is this not sufficient motivation?
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You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might
~De 6:5
Another part is the choice to love.
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
~Jos 24:15
"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
~Jer 31:31,32
Apparently, God wants us to choose Him.
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Why should He bother proving it to you?
Well, I have always been taught that god desires a relationship with us. If that is the case, it's hard to have a relationship with someone if you aren't actually sure that they even exist...
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God created humans, flaws, doubts and all
God demands faithful obedience from humans
God has decreed that those who don't believe will be tormented for all eternity
Therefore it seems to me he has a moral obligation to lay the facts on the table, and conclusively prove himself. Otherwise we can only assume he created humans as they are in order to torment them for all eternity. And if you are going to plead free will, then I counter that forcing an uninformed choice on a being predisposed to seek proof is essentially no choice at all.
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You turn around say, "Jesus, you're a ponce. And 'Father'? A right git."
What's the difference?
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I asked specifically as a follow-up to the statement that, should the Christian God prove His existence, the reader would not serve or worship Him. In your case, I took your actual response to one of my original posts. So that is exactly what I'm asking.
Yeah, pretty much what you said.
So - assuming the Christian God exists - it would serve no real purpose to prove it to you.
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Your view eliminates Christianity. If the Christian God actually exists, your conclusion cannot be true.
So how do you qualify your own personal experience in either an objective or subjective manner as truth?
Frankly, my conversion began as a matter of utility. My trust in Jesus is entirely personal in nature, not an abstraction. There isn't anything I would offer others as some kind of acceptable qualifier.
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Not the sum total or whole, since that would be unscriptural, but enough revelation that makes God's essential personality unique and opposed to your worldview.
How we choose to perceive it is the result of our own personal limitations, however it does not change the real essence of the matter at hand, be it God or infinity.
However, if God personally chose to reveal enough of His essence that one can distinguish it from religious falsehood, then personal limitation - or, conversely, personal openness - is irrelevant to the fact.
it should be recognized here that there is a lot more going on than a strictly limited religious viewpoint will allow and indeed there is an abundance of subject matters and questions that remain unanswered because of it.You shouldn't view this in such black and white terms. One does not automatically assume all questions are answered merely because one accepts the revelation ( ... )
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