Episode Discussion Post: 3x01 "The Face of Death"

Apr 14, 2013 21:05

Please join us for a live discussion of tonight's episode 3x01 "The Face of Death" tonight at 10 pm EST. And if you can't join us live, still feel free to leave your thoughts and discuss after the fact! If you need viewing assistance, please see the previous post.


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season 3, 3x01, discussion

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tcoll813 April 15 2013, 19:03:29 UTC
How awesome! I am hoping that we get more reflection coming from Lucrezia though. Her advances towards her brother are a little too fast for my tastes.

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caffconcious April 15 2013, 20:27:49 UTC
You mean her advances in the second episode videos?

I thought both her actions and Cesare's were a bit too sudden... I mean, it's clear that's always been a hidden sexual tension between them, but I'm not sure how aware they were of this situation. I'd love them to start thinking about this and only then get to some action...

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heartnpen April 16 2013, 01:11:28 UTC
actually, it's weird because we're seeing it after several months. However, we have to remember in the timeline this happens right after the "marry me" scenes, in addition to Lucrezia's heartbreak w/Paolo and Juan's death. I think all these circumstances are bringing out a different side to both of them. And Cesare lost that woman (what's her name? I always referenced her as the LucreziaBot) recently too. So this sudden desire can come from a mutual broken and lonely place where only they seem to exist. I think that's part of where the "Only a Borgia can love a Borgia."

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rochey_1 April 17 2013, 04:21:11 UTC
Yeah i agree Francois said in an interview "They've been desperately in love with each other since their very first scene together and they've tried to find each other in other people/relationships(lets talk about how Blatant Ursula and to a smaller degree Paolo was as replacement goldfishes( rebounds/stand ins) but they just can't and never will so they basically turn to each other and admit what they've always wanted...Each other.

And Neil Jordan said "these 2 characters that are fascinated with each other and totally enraptured and they are the ideal spouses for each other and they can't find that with anyone else and is why they go through many relationships with others..It's a love so strong and protective that it's almost dangerous"

I guess you could say that sums them up LOL understatement.

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nyposter April 16 2013, 03:50:37 UTC
I think the show started the set up in S2. In 2 x 09, if Juan mentions that he thinks his siblings are in an affair it shows that their behavior is also noted by people on the show. In 2 x 10, the dance was very intimate and look at her face as she looks at him, they look like lovers.

I have always thought that Cesare knows what his feelings are. Lucrezia I have never been sure, but when she makes comments like "whose yours?", it implies that she knows there are underlying feelings there.

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caffconcious April 16 2013, 13:14:26 UTC
In my opinion, the tension has been pretty much explicit since the first episode. Vanozza every now and then displays interesting reactions... Before the "if anything happened to her, I'd die" quote, let's not forget Cesare vaguely asks about Lucrezia and Vanozza answers with a somewhat suspect "you miss her that much?". And last season ended with her strange looks towards them dancing together. So yes, I think other characters might have noticed that something peculiar happens between them ( ... )

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crowandfog April 16 2013, 13:55:08 UTC
I credit this, perhaps, to him now being all wild and finally the soldier and rebel son he has always wanted to be... Maybe he decided to have a little crazy instant and give in to his sexual desires as well...! Lol, that's totally what I decided to think! Because when Cesare was sitting next to Rodrigo's bed and talking somewhat wistfully about how he was going to torture Della Rovere, I was like, "whoa, dude, careful there. Your psychotic is showing." Vanozza, if not Rodrigo and Lucrezia as well, looked all ~AWKWARD. I mean, I think Cesare was smiling a little even? So then I realized that Cesare has completely given up on keeping any appearances, besides looking like The Boss at all times (which is more legit than not, tbh). It makes sense after 2x10, really, when he first stopped pretending. Cesare is gonna be who he is now, a vindictive soldier who killed his brother without remorse and is in love with his sister. So I can understand him being more open about the true nature of his feelings with Lucrezia, by kissing her. But ( ... )

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nyposter April 17 2013, 02:51:18 UTC
SPOILER ALERT

Hmm I like your interpretation of the bedroom scene and why he asked about games. You are correct, these two are very good at wordplay, it's been their "thing" since season one and some of that wordplay has also included romantic undertones on both their ends (more so Cesare's).

What killed me during that scene is the tear she sheds when she says, "you look but don't touch"

I also agree with you about Cesare, he isn't apologizing for who he is anymore, I also picked up on him talking about torturing Della Rovere, he has never been that open in "torture speak" with his family. Remember the look on his face when they burned Savaranola last season, he was smiling. I do however believe that Lucrezia is fully aware of the darkness in Cesare and what he is capable of.

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crowandfog April 17 2013, 04:01:28 UTC
Hmm I like your interpretation of the bedroom scene and why he asked about games.

Thanks. :D Glad it makes sense to someone besides me, lol.

I do however believe that Lucrezia is fully aware of the darkness in Cesare and what he is capable of.I agree that she knows, and I think that--regardless of what she said about saving his soul--she likes it, at least a little. Cesare's been shown repeatedly to take pleasure in others' pain, and, honestly, so has Lucrezia. She laughed in S1 about Giovanni Sforza's happy accident, Cesare cheered her up in 2x01 by throwing tacks on the floor to hurt Juan (and that's before Juan killed Paolo), and hearing the chandelier fall in 2x03 put a smile on her face. I think she's a true believer and is sometimes bothered by this part of them (like in 2.06, when she questions what giving/accepting the knife says about them), but she knows exactly who they are. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been so quick to ask Cesare for information on poisoning Juan. It means so much that she was comfortable approaching ( ... )

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caffconcious April 21 2013, 14:18:18 UTC
Your interpretation of the "what is this game" during the bedroom scene is indeed really good. I have the impression even though Cesare has been wanting to fulfill his desire for Lucrezia for a long time (well, at least since their first scene together in episode 1), he would never really do anything - unless she was the one who took the first step ( ... )

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rochey_1 April 17 2013, 04:12:39 UTC
"But all his actions have always been intensely platonic, it's almost as if he cherished and loved her so much he even denies himself full access to her... So I always expected a little bit of conflict from his part when the moment of fulfilling these desires finally came ( ... )

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crowandfog April 17 2013, 04:29:36 UTC
Yes to everything you just said!

i've always seen Cesare loving Lucrezia as almost like a religion, crazy i know, but there's like a reverent thing he has in regards to her.

Not crazy at all! I think that's a totally legit interpretation of Cesare's feelings for Lucrezia, especially in a show with so much religion. She asks him if he loves God, and his response is "More than I love you?" I read a fanfic in which, to roughly paraphrase, Crezia kinda thought that part of why Cesare doesn't believe in God is because he can't accept that loving her is a sin.

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rochey_1 April 17 2013, 05:36:22 UTC
"Crezia kinda thought that part of why Cesare doesn't believe in God is because he can't accept that loving her is a sin ( ... )

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caffconcious April 21 2013, 14:25:46 UTC
Yes to both of you!

The only moments when Cesare shows true obedience and servitude are when he is with her. As a Cardinal he couldn't be more unhappy and anguished by having to obey Rome's rules; as a Christian, he commits dozens of sins daily; as a son he is constantly defying Rodrigo and Vanozza; as a brother, concerning Juan... Well, he went as far as killing Juan...! When it comes to Lucrezia, however, whatever she asks he complies. During the fishermen fantasy scene, for example, when she says she'd like to ask him something, he replies "Then ask and it is yours"... That's such an eloquent representation of his absolute donation and dedication to her.

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sherrilina April 15 2013, 22:46:16 UTC
I kind of agree (which is partly why the scenes in the trailers of her enticing Cesare while naked on her bed felt off/gave me mixed feelings)--Cesare has long seemed to be pretty conscious of the nature of his feelings for Lucrezia (see his tone while "jokingly" misinterpreting her "marry me" statement in 2x10), even if he was hesitant to act on them, but Lucrezia seemed less self-aware in this regard, especially as excited as she was about Alfonso and her painter lover last season.

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crowandfog April 16 2013, 01:58:33 UTC
I agree that it felt a little weird, but I'm starting to think that it's less like Lucrezia "realizing" her feelings and more like just reciprocating Cesare's? I mean, he got pretty freaking obvious by the end of S2, and, from what I can tell 2x10 to 3x02 only covers like 3 days of time. So the "marry me" fantasy and the dance of romance kinda JUST happened, right? And she seemed fairly aware to me during that dance (they were making a spectacle of themselves, tbqh, like, I bet even married couples there didn't dance like that). Then the next day Cesare is crediting the Pope's life to her and protecting her and being sexy as hell and kissing her the day after that and saying all this passionate stuff, and Alfonso is tightening his chastity belt. So maybe she decides to take the path of least resistance? At least, that's what I'm telling myself to keep from being a bit disappointed with the execution of a storyline I've been waiting so long for, LOL.

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