Christmas and Chanukah

[cellio]

Two takes on multiculturalism and December holidays, both written by liberal Jews, with rather different stances: one from JBCs (Jews by Choice) and one from the Velveteen Rabbi. I myself tend more toward

Comments

[profane_stencil]

I almost responded "Amen" to this, but thought better of it... I am neither Jewish nor Christian, but it saddens me to see either religion (or any religion) watered down for the sake of not giving offense.
The urge to strip away all differences and claim that "we are all the same under the skin, we worship the same god," strikes me as immature and shallow.
You and I are very different, and that's not only okay, that's the way it should be. I don't want to live in a Star Trek world where everyone weighs the same and talks the same (and gives lip service to the value of cultural differences, while denying its reality).

[siderea]

Word.

[cellio]

Well-said!

Thank You!

[cecerose]

You hit the nail on the head.

[ealdthryth]

We were having a discussion today at work about holiday decorations. We aren't allowed to have any Christmas decorations. I think that's a good thing seeing as we are a taxpayer funded institution. At least one of my coworkers is irked that we can't have Christmas decorations, claiming that most of the country is Christian and this is a Christian holiday. I can sort of see her point, but I think it is misplaced in a library. We can do a lot with seasonal decorations for winter without addressing any religious holiday.

[cellio]

I think for a publicly-funded library a no-decorations rule is the right call -- not so much because of an appearance of endorsement, though that's part of it, but because you're there to serve all of the public, and some of them would be uncomfortable if greeted by a life-size nativity scene at the entrance, even if you also had a chanukiyah on the counter.

Your coworker's thinking is not unusual; lots of people seem to equate "most of us are X" with "this is an X country". I worry about this a lot more in politics than in decoration policies, mind, but it's a common attitude. I'm sick of hearing "this is a Christian country" (and therefore the following laws are appropriate...), and I'll bet most of the founders would roll over in their graves at the thought too. :-)

[goljerp]

I have a feeling how the people who want nativity scenes on public property would feel if instead we were talking about some of those Indian goddesses with multiple arms and stuff. I mean, that's a religious symbol to lots of people, right?

But that's not what I want. I don't want a tiny chanukiah next to a nativity scene, or christmas tree, or even a HUGE chanukiah. It's public property; I don't want to see any religious display. I can do that at home, thank you very much.

Now, if my neighbor wants to put a Christmas tree on his lawn, or an Indian statue, or a pink flamingo... that's their business. I might object if it was a next door neighbor who had a Christmas display that was so huge that it attracted so many people that there were huge traffic jams from October 31st until January 15th... but I'd feel the same way about any 2 and a half-month long display that backed up traffic.

[cellio]

I completely agree. Churches and individuals should put up nativity scenes if they feel so moved; the city should not. The JCC or individuals should put up the enormous chanukiyah if so moved (or hold the mondo bonfire on Lag b'Omer, or whatever); the county should not. The Hindu temple or individuals should put up the multi-armed statues if so moved; the state should not.

[siderea]

You might be amused by this story.

My father's second wife is Roman Catholic. I was with them and her three teenagers one Christmas eve when I was a young teen. Her mother lived near-by, so every year she would drive her mother to Midnight Mass. I don't think it has ever been clarified to my step-grandmother that I'm not a practicing Jew.

On this occasion, my step-mother went to each of her three kids (all older than me) and asked in turn, "Would you like to with Nana and me to Midnight Mass". In turn each demurred (I think in favor of watching some athletic event on TV). And then, I suppose because I was hanging around and she didn't want to be rude, she turned to me and said very diffidently, "Er, I don't suppose you'd like to go to Midnight Mass?"

I looked at my three step-siblings glued to the tube, contemplated my incipient night of utter boredom for about half a second, and replied, "Sure, I'd love to."

Boy, was my step-grandmother surprised to see which kid my step-mother managed to bring along. But pleased, of course

[cellio]

"Really?" I chirped innocently. "Which one?"

*laugh* Thank you for brightening my morning!

Holiday greetings

[miz_hatbox]

So... when someone wishes you a merry Christmas, what do you do

Re: Holiday greetings

[cellio]

So... when someone wishes you a merry Christmas, what do you do?I generally assume that "merry Christmas" has taken on the same role as "have a nice day" (now escalated to "have a great day" in many places) -- a rote greeting that usually does not pass through the deliberation phase of the brain on the way to the mouth. It's December, and that's something a lot of people just say in December. I used to respond in the ways you talked about, but I've come to the conclusion that the cashier at the grocery store doesn't really care, and the socially-correct response is along the lines of "same to you". For someone I'm closer to, where it would be appropriate to drop the "actually I'm not" hint, I'll say something different

Re: Holiday greetings

[ealdthryth]

I agree. It's just a rote greeting. It's the same kind of thing as when someone says how are you. I assume they want the rote reply of fine, not a real answer. When I was a freshman in college, I wrote an English paper on these types of phrases. That was about 30 years ago, so I don't remember exactly what I put in the paper. I wonder if I still have it somewhere.

Just before Thanksgiving, I took to saying ,em>Have a nice holiday to the patrons. I figure if most people are off work, it's a holiday. I plan to do the same right before Christmas.

Re: Holiday greetings

[siderea]

I generally assume that "merry Christmas" has taken on the same role as "have a nice day"

You know why Christians promote Christmas so heavily? Misery loves company, that's why. (Only half joking.)

[nsingman]

While I understand the reason for elevating Chanukah in importance (it's proximity to Christmas, a major Christian holiday), I've always found it to be a foolish thing to do. One might argue that, for observant Jews, any given Sabbath is more important than Chanukah (and some other holidays, besides). Plus, the history of the holiday always made it very unpleasant for me to think about. Not unexpectedly, perhaps; libertarians tend not to cheer theocratic victories. :-)

[cellio]

any given Sabbath is more important than Chanukah (and some other holidays, besides)

*ding ding ding ding ding*

I'm reminded of the following story: during the crusades, a virtuous Jew is despairing. After pouring his heart out in prayer, he is visited by Eliyahu, who tries to comfort him. The man asks "will we ever be accepted?" and in answer, Eliyahu carries him forward in time. They land in December in present-day Manhattan, and amidst all the Christmas decorations the man sees many chanukiyot and stars of david and bright lights and other Jewish symbols. The man gets very excited and responds: "Wow, that's great! If they make such a big deal out of Channukah, I can't wait to see what they do for Shavuot!"

[nsingman]

Oh, good one! :-)

I have a few Jewish colleagues (not all of them, to be fair) who do make a very big deal about Chanukah, but don't actually know what Shavuot is.

[cellio]

Yeah, me too. The most effective jokes are the ones that can pinpoint these kernels of truth. :-)

Some of the Jews I knew who make a big deal over Chanukah are explicitly reacting to Christmas -- sort of a "hey, we can play that game too" sort of thing. Pity they'd rather do that than channel that energy into building up a neglected major holiday, but oh well.