liturgical minutiae

[cellio]

We were supposed to study talmud again today, but never quite got there: when I walked in, my rabbi asked me what I thought of the new siddur. We talked about some of the issues there, and ended up on a hunt for the alternate R'tzei.

Comments

[goljerp]

There are two talmuds, one composed in Babylon (in exile) and the other composed in Jerusalem.

The Babylonian Talmud is also a bit later. I think that (before the printing press) there was something like one complete surviving manuscript of the whole Jersualem Talmud, with a few partial manuscripts. This might say more about the Talmud burnings of Europe (and elsewhere) and the difficulty of copying manuscripts than it does about the authority of the Jersualem Talmud, but still...

[goljerp]

I'm not sure what excuse I have for not saying this last night: this is way cool. Sorry if my nitpicking comment made it seem I thought otherwise...

[cellio]

Don't worry about it. I saw your comment as offering more info, not nit-picking.

siddur name, 2 rtzeis

[chaos_wrangler]

and one other (name like d'Pool?)

(From memory) I think the name is "de Sola Pool". If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's the main siddur used at Lincoln Square Synagogue (modern orthodox in NYC).

I think the second, different rtzei you found is the one used when the kohanim do birkat kohanim instead of the chazan saying it. In some congregations/traditions this happens every shabbat, but in most American Ashkenaz shuls it only happens on yom tov so you'll only find it in that section of the siddur. This may account for some of the discrepancies between the siddurim you looked at.

Btw, the compiling, editing, etc of the Babylonian Talmud was finished later than that of the Jerusalem Talmud, but (as far as I know) the two were started at around the same time. One reason for the later completion is that the Jews living in Babylon generally had less religious persecution to deal with, which is also a reason that the Babylonian Talmud is generally more followed (since more discussion was possible at the time it was written).

Re: siddur name, 2 rtzeis

[cellio]

Thanks for the information! Yes, "de Sola Pool" sounds familiar. I haven't seen the siddur (except that one time in my rabbi's office, when I didn't have time to page through it), but I've heard others mention the name.

This may account for some of the discrepancies between the siddurim you looked at.

Sounds like. In particular, an Israeli siddur -- where they do that much more frequently -- would probably be different.

Talmud: makes sense. I knew the Babylonian was more complete, but hadn't thought about the reasons for that.

liturgical geeking, cont'd

[sanpaku]

The "retzei" prayer, and the one with the chatimah [1] that you indicated, runs traditionally thusly

Re: liturgical geeking, cont'd

[cellio]

For reference, the Reform version is as follows:

R'tzei A-- Elo[k]einu, b'amcha yisrael. Ut'filatam b'ahavah t'kabeil, uthi l'ratzon tamid avodat yisrael amecha. [K]eil karov l'chol korav, p'nei el avadecha v'choneinu; sh'foch ruchacha aleinu, v'techazeinah eineinu b'shuvcha l'tzion b'rachamim. Baruch... hamachazir sh'chinato l'tzion.

That's rather different. I wonder where "tamid" and most of the third sentence come from.

I am not skilled enough to translate this literally. Help?

since officially we're not praying for the restoration of the cult, just the rebuilding of the Temple

That's interesting; I didn't know that. I thought Conservative often prayed for both, and it was just the liberal-leaning C Jews I usually hang out with who do otherwise.

(In a Conservative daily service without imahot, that is the only change in the Amidah from the traditional orthodox prayerbook.)Isn't there a part of Aleinu that's also slightly abridged? I'm fuzzy on the details, as Reform does it too, but I thought there was something in

Re: liturgical geeking, cont'd

[sanpaku]

Last things first: yes, that's the Elbogen

Re: liturgical geeking, cont'd

[cellio]

Thanks for the translation. That's actually not far off from what Gates of Prayer has, but with that siddur I'm never sure what English I can trust.

Me, I am not sure about the sacrificial cult, but I use the future tense. That's how meshuggah I am.

I don't think it's meshuggah to hope for the temple but not the sacrificial cult. That is, we can still hope for a central place of worship in our land. I don't myself, most days, but I can understand those who do.