Comments | celandineb: Brokeback Mountain

celandineb

Brokeback Mountain

Jan 15, 2006 22:08

Went and saw this, finally, with SO today. I enjoyed it a great deal - in part because of the scenery, which is perhaps odd, but I spent enough of my childhood summers in the Rockies that I love these vistas. Not going to write a proper review of it. But have a few related thoughts to put down, mostly on the aspect of sexuality at this time.

( Miscellaneous ideas... some spoilers )

reviews, deep thoughts

Comments 62

espresso_addict January 16 2006, 04:56:30 UTC

I agree about being very dubious about labelling it a 'gay cowboy film'. I'd read Jack's 'I'm not queer', spoken after Ennis's, as being defensive.

...though we don't see Jack and Lureen the same way...

They're shown having sex in the car.

celandineb January 16 2006, 14:01:06 UTC

They're shown having sex in the car.

Ah, that's true. But not during the marriage.

And yes, I'd agree that the "I'm not queer" is defensive for Jack - and for Ennis as well, for that matter. But nevertheless it needs to be reckoned with IMO if one is trying to pin a label on either. Because it could also mean - from what we know at that moment - "I'm not queer, I like girls, you're the only man I've ever been with" - for either. Later we do see that Jack has sex with other men, but it's not certain that he has before.

espresso_addict January 16 2006, 22:22:51 UTC

Agreed; however there's a real problem with self-definitions in an intolerant societal atmosphere.

edoraslass January 16 2006, 05:50:52 UTC

SPOILER

And how does one define "gay"? Does it mean the preference, or the act?

I've kind of been wondering the same thing. It didn't appear that Ennis was interested in men at all,except for Jack. Ennis could be referred to as "gay" when he and Jack were together, but not at any other time (from what we saw).

I would prefer the term "queer," personally, as being less limiting and more inclusive - although it has the drawback of being specifically denied as a valid descriptor by both charactersSee, I don't factor them denying the specific term at all, for perhaps bizarre language shift reasons. In the 60s,it seems people tended to use "queer" more than "gay" -- if my father were to refer to homosexuals at all, he would call them "queer", because that was the mode of speech when he was younger. (Not that he has referred to gay or queer at all since I was about 14 and he flipped out that I was watching "Hello, Sidney" with Tony Randall) Nowadays, the word "queer" seems to have become a more academic term, i.e., queer theory, ( ... )

celandineb January 16 2006, 14:06:03 UTC

You're right, I think, that "queer" was the catch-all word in the era, and that is what they would have used even if accepting it, rather than "gay." I use "queer," myself, but then I am one - and an academic to boot, although I don't go in for queer history. ;-)

If I absolutely had to label them with more-defining terms, I'd call Ennis bi and Jack gay, I think. Because Jack has sex with several other men, so it's pretty clearly that he likes men, categorically, for sex, whereas Ennis likes Jack only.

just_ann_now January 16 2006, 10:40:49 UTC

I'm going to see it today and will hopefully be able to discuss it with some coherency this evening! I'll have lots of driving time to digest and process.

celandineb January 16 2006, 14:06:21 UTC

I'll be interested to hear what you think!

Back with thoughts..... just_ann_now January 17 2006, 00:28:47 UTC

...coherent or not remains to be seen.

My first thought on leaving the theater was: this is too painful for me to see again. I know now, after a bit of a dissection with thrihyrne and lots of time for digestion on the way home, that I will need to see it several times to catch all the nuances I missed today ( ... )

celandineb January 17 2006, 03:11:52 UTC

I'd say that was very coherent!

Now, I didn't read Jack as a sexual predator, and I definitely didn't think that he felt he was certain to have Ennis. But I'm also terrible at noticing flirtation (if/when I see the film again I will be looking for that more specifically).

Then: The Kiss - wow. Does Ennis realize at that moment what Jack means to him

When he sees Jack drive away, at the end of the first summer - when he's throwing up and crying - that's when Ennis realizes, I think. Although he hasn't yet put himself into the completely hopeless situation he'll be in when next he sees Jack, and which perhaps makes him actually conscious in a more significant way ( ... )

Thread 22

still_dorothy January 16 2006, 12:55:14 UTC

Wow! What an intelligent, thought-provoking post! I happen to agree with you on all points.

celandineb January 16 2006, 14:08:24 UTC

What an intelligent, thought-provoking post!

*g* Chalk it up to my academic training, partly at least. Queerness is of course a topic that is close to my heart; I don't work with it professionally, but I have done some reading on it and it's a major theme in my fic.

neogrammarian January 16 2006, 15:52:02 UTC

yes, a very interesting post, although we may agree to disagree.

I'm w/edoraslass re: queer/gay. I'm one of the few queers I know who use the term- & those who do tend to be bi's who are heavily theoretical about their sexual identities ( ... )

celandineb January 16 2006, 19:02:05 UTC

the major emotional relationship, the love, in their life was for each other

Absolutely! However I described either character, it wouldn't be as straight, that's for sure. *g* I don't particularly want to label either one, though; I want that to be unnecessary. Defining people by who they have sex with bugs me, because it makes sexuality the be-all and end-all, and I think it's very limiting in how people then relate to each other. It's like defining someone by their hair color or skin color or height or any other such physical characteristic; how much does any of that have to do with who one is? I am me, I am not just something that can be put in a mental box labeled "married but queer" and then not thought about. Does that make sense?

A lesbian by any other name is just as scary neogrammarian January 17 2006, 01:09:46 UTC

It does, and I think the current teens may be moving in that direction, and yet I just had a conversation about some pitfalls of this today ( ... )

celandineb January 17 2006, 02:52:59 UTC

Society is set up to help men and women hook up w/each other. If we drop orientation ids, in society as it stands, than those of us not looking for an opposite-sex lover are losing about the only assistance our cultural has to help us.

Well... it's not necessarily easy for M/F couples to get together either, but I get your point. I think it's not that I'm totally against such labels, when they serve a useful purpose (and finding a partner is one), but that they're so often misused. Person X is lesbian, and therefore I will assume A, B, and C about her, and deny her the same rights as a straight woman.