Mary, Marty, Sexism, and Digressions

[carbonelle]

This all began with a post by stoplookingup On Uhura and the whole "Mary Sue" thing that I found thanks to hobsonphileI agree with both that there's certainly a strong smell of sexism in the eagerness to dismiss a powerful, good-looking female character as "too good to be true," but a male one as "kewl," Seriously, if one fails to balk at the new Star Trek's James T.

Comments

[amy34]

It might have helped if the Uhura character had shown some flaws like Kirk (if Kirk's rashness can be considered a flaw--the movie seemed mostly to glorify it). But yeah, one of the things that frustrates me about writing female characters is that readers can be so hostile towards them. If I make them at all interesting, some reader will find something to hate, and I don't get this reaction to the same extent with male characters. I think you're right; many readers/viewers will view a "too good" female character as a Mary Sue and a "too good" male character as par for the course.

[keestone]

I think that Wesley Crusher still defines Mary Suedom (well, along with Princess Sparkly-Poo, the Hogwarts Transfer Student). I've never really used "Marty or Gary Stu" that much.

I suspect there are more than the usual complicating factors when you look at Uhura. I didn't have any problem with Uhura, except for the fact that the romance seemed forced (and I suspect it caught a bunch of people that way, and put her into the "little miss perfect who just happens to be getting it on with a main character" box). I think some of the problem stems from the difference between the fact that just having a Black woman on the bridge was awesome in the Sixties, but since then we've had things like Galaxy Quest pointing out that "all I do is repeat what the computer says." Trying to reboot with the characters from the sixties, without figuring out how to give Uhura something more obviously vital to do was going to cause a problem.

***nods***

[carbonelle]

The romance took me aback at first--it seemed so... unspocklike. But once I took that in stride: after all, they'd clued us in that this Spock was different, he'd grown up with a different relationship to his father, so he'd do different things in his life, too.

[juliet_winters]

O, new Uhura has a flaw all right. She is prissy in a way that old Uhura never was. Old Uhura might not have slept with Kirk at the Academy, but she sure would have had fun openly flirting with him. I wonder if anyone's asked Nichelle Nichols her opinion.

I'm afraid that there really is a lot of sexism amongst sci-fi males, probably due to their rejection by many, many females--particularly ordinary, "lovely" ones.
The science fiction genre has often played to these stereotypes of uber virtuous virginal princess or whorish she-devil. Thank heavens for Leigh Brackett!

[superversive]

I'm afraid that there really is a lot of sexism amongst sci-fi males, probably due to their rejection by many, many females-

And then you have the nerve to accuse others of stereotyping? Good grief.

[superversive]

So you’re defending your stereotypes by resorting to other stereotypes? And for evidence you offer ‘most humans tacitly acknowledge’ - i.e., no evidence at all.

You are, by the way, accusing me of seeing women as tools, and getting angry at them if they’re not useful or helpful. I reject the accusation with dudgeon - just as I reject the implied accusation that I (as a so-called ‘sci-fi male’) have a grievance against women for rejecting me.

Are you done insulting half the population now, or do you feel like digging yourself a deeper hole?

[arhyalon]

I loved Uhura!

I think this Mary-Sue thing has really gotten out of hand! A Mary-Sue is when an unimportant character with no real place in the story outdoes everyone else.

It is not when the main female character is effective. Uhura, for god sake, was only effective at communicating. It's not like she pulled a gun and fought on the planet!

Sheesh. ;-)

Back to the topic

[juliet_winters]

and sorry for the digression

Re: Back to the topic

[carbonelle]

Agreed!

I do think that one element of Mary-Sue dom isn't so much the overwhelming awesomeness of the character1 as the universal recognition of said awesomeness by all and sundry, except the Really Vile People. And you can tell the RVP-ness of anyone by how well they admire Mr. or Ms. Sue and the likely redemption of same by whether they come around to Accepting the Awesome.

Which, if done well, and lightly (Aragorn, son of Arathorn, anyone?) is fun to read. But not very realistic.

* * * * * * * *

1. She's a physicist! She's a first-class ballerina! She's gorgeous! And a best selling author! No. She's not a Mary Sue: she's Catherine Asaro.

Re: Back to the topic

[juliet_winters]

How about characters with an average number of problems and a lot of quirkiness?

I know it's not particularly high tone of me, but I do prefer Mystery Men to Watch Men.

Re: Back to the topic

[tygerr]

As luck would have it, I wrote a fairly long and rambling comment which said pretty much exactly what you just did. And then it got eaten by the ether. And then I read this.

So. Um. What you just said. (I'm rather fond of Honor herself, for instance. But OMG do I get sick of the absolute correspondence between other characters' good/evil and their love/hate for her.)

(The now-vanished comment also featured a side dish of snide eyerolling in the general direction of Doc Savage, an example of an unreadably bad MALE Sue.)