Nijab

[mijopo]

Apparently the Quebec government supported an ultimatum requiring a woman to remove her veil in order to continue to receive French lessons in Quebec. (link to G & M story)  The argument, or one of the arguments, was that it was harder to teach her pronunciation without being able to see her lips move.  This strikes me as an odd basis for the

Comments

[sourdick]

The local news covered this and they said she was also unable to face the classroom when doing oral presentations and during open class discussions, and had to therefore turn around and face the wall when speaking.

The school deemed this as disruptive to the rest of the class' students and an unequal amount of extra time was being dedicated to this woman, so she was asked to adjust.

I agree with the Quebec government and the school. If you are taking up time and resources, and unable to participate normally without causing unnecessary disruption to everyone else, provided you do not have a physical handicap, then you should accept that your religion choice limits your ability to attend this school.

[mijopo]

According to the story, they're insisting that she remove the nijab. What does that have to do with not facing the classrom?

But, setting that aside, it's certainly peculiar to not face the classroom, but hardly seems disruptive nor is it clear to me that it requires so much extra time.

[sourdick]

Probably "removing the nijab" was only part of the schools request. From the article: "She gave presentations from the rear of the classroom with her back to the class, which counted three men among 20 students. Hostility grew one day when she asked male students to move away from her. For one-on-one exercises, the woman would retreat to a corner with her female instructor.. ... But when a new segment of the class began in October, there was no guarantee the teacher would be a woman. The coincidental gender imbalance of the first segment would end just as the entire class was supposed to sit around a U-shaped table and converse"

So she can't be near men, she needs to work alone with a female teacher, who may or may not be available anymore, and she cannot participate in a round-table discussion with the class? Could any other student ask for this much extra attention? Perhaps a private tutor would be a better fit for her special needs, because she is basically unable to completely the class requirements because of her religious

[mijopo]

Well, I'm only going by what the article claims.

But to your other worries, the notion of being tolerant does entail putting up with some inconveniences. It's hard to claim that on the one hand, we're a multicultural and tolerant nation while on the other refusing to make, what appear to me, relatively straightforward accommodations for someone's religion. I don't know, on the basis of reading a short newspaper article, whether the accommodations this women was requesting were completely unreasonable, but at first reading they strike me as quite peculiar but not overly burdensome.

[tridus]

Well, this is a slightly better use of the kangaroo court system then the battle over condo parking.

Bizzarely, I agree with sourdick on this. Private instruction would serve her better, language classes in the public system tend to require things like actually talking to the class. The niquab is only one part of this, really it's her causing a disruption for everybody else by insiting on all these needless special requirements that is the problem.

[sourdick]

Why is everyone STUNNED when they agree with me! Im not some crazy lunatic, you know! :P

[tridus]

Because you're usually on the minority side of whatever we happen to be discussing today. So when one of us happens to wander over there, it's confusing and bewildering.

[sourdick]

I find solace in my 18 cats. (pets a really old cat a little too roughly while staring at you)

[gjohnsonkoehn]

"Besides, how do you learn a language if the teacher doesn't see your lips?"

This, to me, is the strangest part of this article. I could certainly see making the argument that all reasonable attempts were made to accomodate this woman, but that ultimately her personal beliefs are simply incompatible with this program; that makes sense. But why do your lips need to be visible for you to learn how to conjugate verbs, or be taught the grammatical rules and rhythms of a language? Surely the teacher can hear if she's mispronouncing words, unless the article simply forgot to mention that they'd hired a deaf lip-reader to teach a language class?

[mijopo]

Yes, indeed, I've taken language classes in which 30+ students were learning from one teacher. Assuredly she wasn't giving individual feedback on each person's lip movement.

[madnecromancer]

That comment at the bottom made me crack up.

How much can we trust these descriptions of her behaviour though?

And, can they really show a correlation between her behaviour and her niqAb? Maybe she has social anxiety - a recently surfaced behaviour syndrome of a sort.

Unless she explicitly states "I wear a niqAb therefore I need to face the wall, etc. etc." having her remove the niqab doesn't make much sense, I mean after all, even without the niqab she can refuse to take part in cross-gender participation.

And since when did not participating with men become disruptive? Especially since theres only 3? in the class...

yes it might seem strange to secular institutions but its not like shes intruding on anyone else's rights.

[profoundtruths]

I always wonder how comments would change if a 'non-muslim' woman was told she had to remove her lip and tongue piercing or if a man was told he'd have to shave his mustache or beard to have his lips seen properly.

Also as a person with social phobia's of my own - what if she had been kicked out because she suffered panic attacks with public speaking; but was really kicked out because she had a couple piercings, but justified it by saying that it's okay because she had anxiety that made instruction of the class more difficult.

[sourdick]

What would someone say if **I** asked to have a specific gendered teacher, and that certain people didn't sit near me, or look at me, and that I needed private time with the teacher because I didn't want to participate in an open round table discussion?

I'd be told, "Listen buddy, we can try to help you, but theres 40 other adults here who want to learn. I think you'd be better off with a private tutor."

Why is it different because its about her god?

[tridus]

Yep, exactly. I can't go to school and demand a male teacher, I'd get laughed out of the building. I also can't rearrange all the female students to be away from me.

What it sounds like she really wants is to act like she's still in Egypt. She's not.

[mijopo]

I think it's different because religious freedom is enshrined in the constitution. That said, I don't think that religious freedom obligates us to offer the level of accommodation you're alluding to here