Eye for an Eye ... or To Which Verses be Blind...

[ca_katarina]

In response to the post
An eye for an eye...
* Nov. 11th, 2008 at 3:48 PM
by

Akien MacIain, Secret Agent Of Happiness

Weirdness...
 
Seen on a bumpersticker on my way to work:

An eye for an eye
makes the whole world blind
I don't find it relevant to any particular thing in my life right now, but I just love the idea. Yes, this model does not work.

MY

Comments

[coen]

"a backwater rebbe a couple of millenium ago"

That's a cute description.

Wasn't that the same backwater rebbe who, when asked if he had come to dispose of all the old laws, replied: "None of the old laws will be dismissed. They all still apply. I came to add new laws. You will do the one, and also the other"
I don't remember exactly in what backwater book he said this, but it must be one of the four backwater gospels.

[ca_katarina]

>GrinYeah, I got that description from a true believer who said the miracles MUST have actually happened, otherwise WHY would the Romans have paid any attention to this guy

[coen]

"In my not insubstantial conservative Jewish education, I may have heard about 2 to 10 minutes TOTAL about life after death."I am not suprised. Although we catholics tend to focus on the afterlife as the most imortant aspect of our faith, I never found much about it in the bible

I'm enjoying this...

[ca_katarina]

Everybody wanted to go to heaven of course, but most people thought that stories about heaven tended to be a bit dull. Stories about hell were far more exciting, so visionairs with visions of hell were more popular.

Have you read the play Don Juan in Hell? I highly recommend it.

From what I understand of the Christian depictions of Heaven, it doesn't sound like much fun. Of course, that's from an incarnate viewpoint. But I've never found an unchanging, preordained structure to be of much interest.

Most of those hell visions borrowed much from pagan mythology.

Hmm. That I didn't know. I did know that a lot of Saints were formerly gods and goddesses (point: Bridgette) and that many celebratory practices were co-opted (just what does a tree have to do with the nativity story???) including the *timing* of Christmas.

The word "hell" is not even a biblical word, but is called after the Nordic/Germanic godess of death called "Hel".Again, didn't know. But in the Old Testament, "satan" has multiple meanings, including temptation

[coen]

I didn't realize you were jewish. Not that is matters much. But it is nice to know where your religious background comes from.

I am an atheist, but I was raised a catholic.
When, as a kid, I was a catholic, I never knew what to think about the jewish religion.
All of our prophets were jews, and even the son of our God was a jew, and yet we insisted that our religion is NOT jewish.
I found that very confusing as a kid.

[ca_katarina]

Mmm Hmm. I find it confusing as an ADULT.

[2 quick irrelevant questions.

1, Did you draw your default icon? I like it.
2. Where do you live?

Thanks. Now back to our scheduled reply.]

Am I Jewish? I was born and raised such, so yes.

What is my religion? Now, THAT gets more complicated.

When I was 18 (I'll have my 43rd b-day this Saturday) a friend (who had been raised Texas Christian -- you don't celebrate Christmas, b/c you should think of every day as the birthday of your savior) turned to me and said:

"Kaaren, don't talk to me about religion. You're an agnostic Unitarian Jew practicing Buddhism who gave up traif [non-kosher] food for lent!"

And since then I've become a Jungian pagan and a part-time witch...

I just LOVE that I was trained in what is now considered "old style" neo-paganism. Talk about an oxymoron!!

btw, I did not give up traif for the practice of Lent, just for the period of Lent. I was considering giving it up completely, and decided to give it a trial run. Doing so when I knew a lot of other

[coen]

1, Did you draw your default icon? I like it.

Yes, I did draw that, and thank you.

2. Where do you live?

I live in the Netherlands, in a village called Apeldoorn. I am a 42 year old male. Father of a nine year old boy, divorced and currently living with my girlfriend.
Want to drop by? Please do.

As for your other questions and remarks; they are very interested, and I am tempted to respond to them, but I am at the office now, and I have some work to do now. So our religious debate party will have to wait until later.

<-- check out this icon's quote... or follow the link to

[ca_katarina]

One of my favorite quotes

Father of a nine year old boy

Now, THERE is an important job.
No sarcasm. Fully serious.
How much of the time do you see him?
I love that you included that in your answer to my request for geographical info... shows how central it is to your sense of self...

Personally, no kids, no husband (current nor ex), no S.O. (though did have a recent breakup), used to have two cats, do have two wonderful nephews whom I don't see enough because they live in Alaska.

Want to drop by? Please do.

Careful what you offer. I don't see it happening in 2008, but I will keep the offer in mind...

I've had e-mail since before there was a world wide web, but still, I think it is just SO KEWL that I'm having this conversation with someone in the Netherlands!!

Do you like Apeldoorn?

I trust you respect your elders, young man. :o)

btw, if you haven't run into them, I recommend checking out ozarque and catpriestess on LJ...

...So our religious debate party will have to wait until later.Thanks for getting back to that

[coen]

Just out of curiousity:
You call yourself a part time witch, and you study the Torah.

What do you, as a torah reading witch, think of this part?
If there be found in the midst of thee, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that doeth that which is evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing His covenant, and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have commanded not; and it be told thee, and thou hear it, then shalt thou inquire diligently, and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who have done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them with stones, that they die. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is to die be put to death; at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him to

Thou shall not suffer a well-poisoner to live.

[ca_katarina]

That's actually the original, which in a dessert culture, makes a LOT of sense. Someone who poisons a well has forced the whole community to up and move, in the HOPE of finding water before it is too late

Kinds, and applications, of belief

[ca_katarina]

My mother, upon arriving at Swarthmore as a freshman, was approached by an evangelical classmate. He asked if he could talk and read scripture with her. She agreed, ON THE CONDITION that for every verse he quoted, they would look it up and read the verses immediately preceding and following.

She takes credit for the fellow in question becoming the pastor for one of the Hippie "Jesus freaks" congregations, based in New York. (This was the 50's.) It was not her goal to dissuade him from Christianity -- according to Judaism, the job of Christians is to be good Christians (and, I suppose, the job of atheists is to be good atheists!) -- but to move him for the "holier than thou" eye for an eye type stance. And she succeeded. (She knew he wouldn't be a student at Swarthmore if he couldn't integrate new ideas into his thinking.) But again: CONTEXT - CONTEXT - CONTEXT!!

Cherry picking

[coen]

Those passages about love and understanding seemed to be the exceptions. And it seems to me that people who dig up those passages are the cherry pickers. So it seemed to me back then, and I still feel like that

Re: Cherry picking

[ca_katarina]

Very nice.

Overall, I agree with what you are saying.

I have a couple of bones to pick (as opposed to cherries).

Those passages about love and understanding seemed to be the exceptions. And it seems to me that people who dig up those passages are the cherry pickers. So it seemed to me back then, and I still feel like that.From my limited exposure to the NT, it seems to me that if you limit yourself to the sections purportedly quoting the rebbe, these sections are no longer the exceptions

Re: Cherry picking

[coen]

Excuse me? These "people already living there" were overwhelmingly nomadic. Meaning, no cities.

According to the bible, when the jews reached the promised land, they found cities. The first city they found was Jericho, which was a huge fortified city, with huge people who had huge fruits. That sounds as if those people had worked and fertilized the land.
I don't know if this is historically accurate, but this is the story in the bible. And that is one of the stories three major religions are built upon.

After Jericho falls, there are more cities mentioned.
So that is why I think the promised land was not inhabited by nomads only.

If you look at modern Israel, it's a different story. Far more complicated.

Re: Jericho

[ca_katarina]

The first city they found was Jericho, which was a huge fortified city, with huge people who had huge fruits

I'll grant you Jericho, a walled city; couldn't find "huge fruits."

If you look at modern Israel, it's a different story. Far more complicated.

Agreed.