Comments | byslantedlight: Bouncing and riffing and inspiring and being inspired and... all that good stuff. *g*

byslantedlight

Bouncing and riffing and inspiring and being inspired and... all that good stuff. g

Nov 10, 2015 19:20

I'm not really here I'm really working (I am), but in a break I was allowed to do email, and there was chat about fic and all, and I got to thinking of things in a roundabout way (who, me? *g*) and I suddenly realised what had been bugging me about the revised fic headers over at the_safehouseI noticed this last time (-ish) I posted a fic to the comm, and went ( Read more... )

thinkythings, pros

Comments 17

msmoat November 10 2015, 19:49:21 UTC

Heh. Well, I never did the disclaimers when it was "required". *g* To me, the derivation is obvious--it's fan fiction, after all, and we're writing in this universe. So, I don't feel the need to credit Brian Clemens and the corporation involved, etc. (And, usually, all those disclaimers say is a general "I am borrowing, not claiming" statement--many don't give specific credit.) Plus, with the legal arguments that the OTW makes--that the works are transformative, and thus fall within legal copyright limits (depending a bit on country), the disclaimer was pointless. I understand what you're saying--it's a way to formally acknowledge that you are using someone else's creation, and that you're aware of that and grateful for the source...but I personally don't feel any need to do that, or, if I do, to do it in a note that goes with the story, rather than in an LJ comm that isn't viewed by anyone else except fans.

byslantedlight November 11 2015, 21:30:55 UTC

Interesting... So self-defining as a fan is enough to show that you're not claiming characters etc. as your own, and you don't feel there's any reason to acknowledge or thank the original source... (tell me if I'm summarising incorrectly *g ( ... )

msmoat November 11 2015, 23:01:54 UTC

Hmm, I thought you were just asking about disclaimers, which has a specific definition in my mind of semi-legal protection. But that probably comes from the different times we entered fandom. I never thought of a disclaimer giving thanks/acknowledgement, in the way you're saying, but I can see why you're thinking that. Fair enough. In my (olden) day, disclaimers were the provenance of publishers, not writers and not on the individual story level ( ... )

byslantedlight November 12 2015, 00:02:01 UTC

Okay, one more reply and then I'm turning off the computer... *g*

Yeah, I was more oblique in describing my thought processes than I thought - I only alluded to them in my subject header! That'll teach me to post think-y stuff in a hurry when I'm working a difficult job to a deadline... except that it no doubt won't *g*

I actually didn't consciously think of the disclaimers as a way of acknowledging/thanking the authors etc. when I began using them, and eventually it was just habit and comm-requests that led me to do it, and the vague idea that people who weren't inclined to sue in the first place would even less inclined to if they were at least told that someone wasn't out to make cash from someone else's creations, though I think I sub consciously felt it was part of them.

In my (olden) day, disclaimers were the provenance of publishers, not writersActually that's a good point too - and probably highlights the wavy pattern of disclaimer-use over the years... Presumably internet-fic adopted/inherited the use of disclaimers from ( ... )

...thank you for the ping! kiwisue November 10 2015, 21:03:53 UTC

To be honest, I've always had a similar reaction to Ms Moat. Vague disgruntlement when 'required' to add a disclaimer, usually not quite game to leave off (for fear of modly wrath rather than any other reason), interspersed with some admiration for the folk who managed to be creative with theirs! I suppose the best of them reminded me of the publisher's footnotes that B used to stick in our re-enactment club journal (that died, alas when it went digital), that were rambly and long and fun. But did I seriously consider that writing "I have no money, please don't sue" had any material effect in the world? Not really.

I can see the point of wanting to acknowledge the work of creators or other people who inspired you, and to thank those souls who helped by pointing out things that needed fixing, and so on. But they'd have to be optional, surely? Also, I might be having a bit of a snit at BC about something he did in his show, and writing a fix-it, so I'm better adding that as a separate note (I think ( ... )

RE: ...thank you for the ping! byslantedlight November 11 2015, 21:45:44 UTC

I wasn't looking at this in view of disclaimers being compulsory, or "required" in any way at all - or even in view of whether they were actually legally useful or not (cos pretty clearly not).

What I was more wondering about, that I guess I referred to pretty obliquely in the title rather than in the post itself now that I re-read (you mean you're not all telepathic?!), was the difference in the treatment of the original creators and that of other fans. My impression is that authors who riff off another fan - are inspired by them in some way, and write something based on their story, or write a sequel or the like, not plagiarists, who deserve many poxes - are considered either beyond the pale to start with, or else are expected to either ask permission of the author or at least acknowledge them as the source/inspiration. And yet the only way most people came close to doing that for the original authors etc. was via the disclaimers, which are now being got rid of as "useless". So... I was wondering how people felt about the idea ( ... )

llywela13 November 10 2015, 21:19:27 UTC

I agree. I always put some kind of disclaimer on my fics - just a nod to the fact that I'm borrowing someone else's work. It feels proper. Good mannered. Or whatever. Maybe it's just how I was brought up in fandom!

byslantedlight November 11 2015, 21:48:55 UTC

Yeah, that's rather how I feel about it too - so I suppose really "disclaimer" doesn't need to be the right word for it. But yeah - good manners, somehow... *thinks*... Maybe partly too because it's an even more emotional thing than buying a pint of milk, or being driven to a train station, both of which things I'd say thank you for - someone else did something that isn't just useful for me, it gives me joy, and that just really seems to need acknowledging... for my own karma, even if they'll never hear it...

golden_bastet November 10 2015, 22:43:47 UTC

I remembered the other day I'd forgotten to put the warnings on my BB.

And now you've reminded me I'd forgotten to put the disclaimers on my BB.

That BB is kind of cursed, whatever way you look at it. :-(

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I actually agree with you. Here, where we all know each other and wander around all day talking about Pros (because, that's what it's all about), we all know the sources, etc. But five-ten years down the line, that story could have gone on an Incredible Journey, or been removed from the zine it'd appeared in, or one of a million things that disassociate it from its origins.

And I have seen stories in this fandom that are crossovers w/o attribution of the crossover source.

And not here, but I have seen writers who think they can actually write a fic from a published source and no one will notice. But that's not here (and those people are just bone stupid ( ... )

byslantedlight November 11 2015, 21:58:08 UTC

Lol for your reminder list at the top! *g* (It takes me forever to catch up with the Big Bangs (too much all at once, said the actress to the bishop... *g*), but I'm hoping, as ever, to get there one day... *g*)

we all know the sources, etc. But five-ten years down the line, that story could have gone on...
That's an excellent point, actually - I wasn't even thinking of that, but yes! I fight desperately to get people to acknowledge their sources in non-fiction for just that reason, come to think of it, and you're right, fiction-sources are no different... And I have tons of stories on paper, some without any information on them except a title, and I have computer files that were downloaded in a rush and all sorts of things that don't have complete attributions on them - and although we perhaps assume that our computer-records will die with us, that's not necessarily true - there are people out there working on archiving digital records just as they archive paper records (and I don't mean the Wayback Machine, I mean actual ( ... )

gilda_elise November 11 2015, 11:47:05 UTC

I've rarely put a disclaimer on a story, usually only if it's required. As both msmoat and kiwisue noted, what we write is considered transformative, and so within legal limits. Anyway, if someone connected to Pros was going to come after anyone, I think they would have done it by now. *g*

byslantedlight November 11 2015, 22:04:17 UTC

Well, it's only recently that the argument's been put forward that it's transformative so everyone's okay really (and I don't actually even know if that's been legally tested yet - has it?), but that aside...

I wasn't thinking about whether we need legal disclaimers, because as I say, I don't think they are legal protection against anyone determined and wealthy enough to bother trying to sue. And having read back over my post now that I'm less frantic about work, I realise that what I was thinking about is really only in the subject header that I used! I was more thinking about the differences seen in borrowing from another fan's work (I don't mean plagiarising it, a thousand poxes on anyone who does that to anyone) - riffing off another fan's story idea or writing a sequel to it etc. - things that seemed to be done alot more years ago than they're done now (at least in Pros), and in borrowing from the original author/creator's work. My impression is that it's considered dire not to thank/acknowledge/ask permission from a fellow fan ( ... )