Thoughts on Buddhism and eating vegetarian.

[sumanathenovice]

This topic has been done to death, I know, but it's still a valuable and fruiful topic of conversation.

Here are my thoughts, inspired by Bhikkhu Aggacitto's post on the subject

Comments

[helliongoddess]

Not giving an opinion one way or another (for, truly, I think it's a matter of individual conscience, which you're not really obligated to explain to anyone) but just for what it might be worth, I recently heard the Dalai Lama asked if he was vegetarian. I was quite surprised to hear that he is not. He said he was for most of his life, until it started affecting his health adversely, and he made the decision that it was necessary for him. He stressed that it is a personal decision for anyone, and if I remember correctly he also mentioned something about the necessity that the animals be treated humanely (unlike 99% of our agriculture here in the US, unfortunately.) I commend you for such in-depth knowledge of the canon on the subject - you seem far from a novice to me! :)

[sumanathenovice]

Why, thank you! It's taken many years of study to get the point of familiarity that I have now. Lots of reading. I still don't feel like a master (is anybody aside from enlightened beings?), but I like to think I can defend anything I say.

Diet is terribly important, as is the necessity for understanding kamma. Of course, the trick is not to fall into extremes either positionally or dogmatically (think of the simile of the snake). The Buddha was certainly aware of the debate during his time. Devadatta brought it up at least once that I'm aware of. In the end, though, the ethical choice is up to each individual. I fear the person who thinks they can have the authority or skill in conduct to declare without question what one ought to do.

[helliongoddess]

I would love to have your last two sentences emblazoned on huge banners and hang them in Congress, on the White House Fence (both sides!), and inside the chambers of the Supreme Court. Add all the similar govt. edifices in all 50 states, for that matter. That essential concept seems to be eluding almost everyone these days, even people who should know better - and it has left me feeling more fear than I ever have before (and I'm not young) regarding the morals, values, and judgement of the people making most of the big decisions in both govt. and the corporate world. Sorry to sound so negative and apocalyptic, and I try to tell myself it's all just illusion anyway.... But when I see people suffering for greed and the planet being destroyed, it sorely tests my ability to just let go. Sometimes I think I'm more of a "She Who Hears the Cries of the World" type..... It varies from day to day, how well I can balance it all out and not be overwhelmed. (Sorry if that was both TMI and off-topic.....)

[sumanathenovice]

I understand. When one considers the scope of suffering from beginningless time into future eons, it seems overwhelming and unstoppable. But even if all we can do is help one being for a brief moment, we should.

[sumanathenovice]

Well put! I'll admit, I'm only fractionally above ignorant when it comes to the tantric vehicles, so I learned something new today. Thank you. :-)

[kymus]

The Shaolin Monks as well are allowed to eat meat and consume wine. They had saved the Tang Emperor and he made a decree that allowed them to partake in this.

This article expands on it: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521

There are two different types of monks though; warrior monks (wu seng), who learn Kung Fu and practice Ch'an, and monastic monks who only practice Ch'an. It's my understanding that monastic monks do not eat meat or drink wine.

[stefan11]

it's good to distinguish two things

[kymus]

Hi sumanathenoviceMorality is an individual thing. I don't see anything wrong - morally - with killing so that I may nourish my body. At the same time, I have always found smoking/drinking/drug use to be immoral and I have abstained from these my entire life. It's easy, really, to make claims of morality and I've seen detailed arguments about why eating meat is morally acceptable. But that's a whole other issue

[sumanathenovice]

Well, the precepts are very clear. No killing nor encouraging killing, though the mere consumption of meat is permissable. I think the problem with the diet is not just the type but the amount of meats and cheeses consumed.

Are you familiar with the Caldwell Esselstyn studies?

[kymus]

Hi sumanathenoviceI am very familiar with Dr. Esselstyn, yes. Ironically, the two links that I provided discuss him to a varying degree. Esselsyn's formula is to take someone on a Standard American Diet and then put them on a very low fat vegan diet with no oil. The result of course is that they are at a lower risk for heart disease, diabetes, and other things. But Esselstyn's evidence is very deceptive because what is also taken out is things like sugar, white flour, refined foods, and processed foods (as well as other things, I would assume, like GMO, pesticides, and other industrial foods). Is it the meat and animal products? Is it the oil? Or is it the industrial foods? Because there is no control group to compare the results of patients on his intervention trial, the only thing to compare it to is those individuals on a Standard American Diet

[sumanathenovice]

I agree, not enough research has been done, but I think my point remains a valid one: the existence of healthy vegans and vegetarians is an irrefutable point (for the most part, I try to make allowances for exceptions for those that can't handle that sort of diet) against the necessity of meat.

I'm aware of the scientific method, it's structure, method, and application, though I'll admit I'm not as informed as you are.

Perhaps the products in an of themselves aren't to blame, but the excess. The Buddha did advocate the middle way after all, and seeing as they sell burgers with nine patties, we should expect some attendant health problems.

[beth_ers]

Thanks for posting about this question, 'done to death' though it is. The problem with being a vegan or vegetarian can be that it may not work for everyone, and all bodies are not the same in the nutrition required to sustain them. I know very educated ex-vegans who still believe in the ethics of veganism, who had to give that lifestyle up because their bodies were ill-suited for the diet.

The struggle to eat compassionately for them still continues, as does my own.

Written as she lets a B12 dissolve under her tongue :),
Beth

[sumanathenovice]

Yes. A friend of mine couldn't be vegetarian or vegan due to very severe Crohn's. In the end, I do think it's up to the individual's ethics, and the eating of meat isn't immoral, but too many people take that as license to eat however much they want.

[strang_er]

It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of non-animal food also comes from processes that harm and kill animals - munched up by harvesting equipment, poisoned by pesticides, killed in clearing of forest to make way for crops etc - so it's not as simple as vegetarian or vegan = cruelty free. If it's necessary for someone to eat meat to survive, then it's not quite like being forced to switch from animal lover to mass murderer. As i see it, all we can do is try to be mindful in finding ways to reduce the suffering that results from maintaining our lives.

[sumanathenovice]

Well, yes. Some death is, unfortunately, inevitable, but I don't think that excuses consumption in excess. I try to be aware that there will be obvious exceptions to every ethical system, and we have to be careful about that. For me it's a matter of minimizing cruelty. I even grow some of my own greens and herbs to contribute to that goal.

[stefan11]

In a contemporary world when good alternatives are so easily and readily available and when we have scientific proof that eating meat in general is not more healthy than plant-based diet and, in particular, eating dead flesh coming from teh factory farms is unhealthy for us, and that its production causes excruciating suffering to animals and serious environmental damage, (except for extraordinary conditions when someone's life or health is at stake) every human being ought to be a vegetarian. Therefore, especially Buddhists especially people who vow a commitment to compassion ought to be vegetarians.

If you want to learn more about how animals are treated these days google "Earthlings" on you tube, or start with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkLt88_u5lQ... )