Meta: What’s with Sam’s depressed, defeated attitude these days?

[brightly_lit]

I’ve seen a lot of people talking lately about Sam’s depressed, defeated state of mind, expressing confusion and frustration about it--a frustration I used to share, until I wrote my last fic and suddenly got some insight into it. After certain episodes, I remain unconvinced the writers know what they’re doing or are truly taking Sam’s depression

Comments

[cuddyclothes]

What makes me sad is that there will never be a middle.

[freya922]

Wow, this is very insightful. I might not call how Dean relates to Sam an 'addiction' or 'obsession,' but I do get what you mean. I feel that Dean sacrificed his childhood for Sam, and that the only love and affection he received in that family was from Sam. My first take is: Dean has abandonment issues. His mother was yanked from him, he had to grow up overnight, his father was wrecked and couldn't give love or affection or approval to him on a regular basis, and all warmth, affection, self-worth...everything good, everything that makes Dean a lovable person and not just a really great hunter or soldier...came from Sam. His view of himself as a loving person and a protector came from Sam, and just plan love came back to him from Sam

[borgmama1of5]

You have some pretty reasonable insights here, especially the part about Dean as 'mom having to let go'--which he had no concept of how to do that. And yet I think it is extremely important to recognize that he DID let sam go at the end of Swan Song--and like you point out, he had time to come to grips with the decision, as opposed to having to decide instantly, when Dean always opts for 'keep Sam alive."

[brightly_lit]

And great thoughts they are

[freya922]

I absolutely will read the fic about Dean coming to terms with Stanford -- it's kind of the same attempt to show him finding balance, I imagine, as I was hoping for at a much later point.

I do think Sam and Dean had conflicts growing up, as any siblings would, but I also think they were each other's only real tether to anything solid. Except for Bobby and Jim, and their Dad, it seems they didn't even have other hunters. (I was just watching early Season 2 and it was pretty clear their dad had kept them out of that larger community to a pretty large extent.)

Anyway - great discussion! (And thanks for checking out my fic.)

[borgmama1of5]

Very thoughtful analysis.

Freya922's point that Dean had time to accept Sam's impending death in Swan Song put him in a totally different place than when he has to make life-or-death decisions for Sam on the fly.

God, I hope they find the middle.

You and me both!!!

[reggie11]

In all honesty, I get astonished whenever someone finds it even remotely surprising that Sam is depressed. Why wouldn't he be? Everything he has ever wanted has been ripped mercilessly from him, a mother, a normal childhood, feelings of security and safety, his beloved fiancee, his own body (vessel for Lucifer), his adored big brother's life and soul, his father, Bobby, his sanity when Cas broke his wall etc etc. Plus, he's had to live with constant guilt; he was tainted by something evil from infancy, was coveted by demons to lead their army, his brother sold his soul and was tortured in hell for him, he trusted Ruby whilst he was so screwed up from grief, he inadvertently broke the final seal and released Lucifer, he killed people when he was brought back without a soul, he thought Dean was dead when Roman exploded (I truly think he didn't look for Dean as he thought there was a strong possibility Dean was in heaven, considering Castiel also vanished) and the trials gave him what he thought was his final chance at redemption. Even

[brightly_lit]

I could tell from another comment I saw of yours that you got around to this way of thinking ahead of me! I'm glad you think so, too, because sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who thinks this way about Sam's state of mind. The reasons you list are so right on target. :-( Poor Sam.

That's a great point that he may have believed Dean to be in heaven since Cas vanished with him.

His fear of abandonment is so strong it overrides everything else and the blame for that lies wholly on John's shoulders. By doing what he did to Dean he screwed him up for life.

I couldn't agree more on this point. I write a lot of John, I have great sympathy for the character, and I truly believe he was doing his best just to keep his family together and alive, but that doesn't mean he didn't fubar Dean completely. :-(

[strgazr04]

In fact, the major arcs of almost every season could be understood as “Things Dean did to hang on to Sam and things Sam did to escape from Dean”: Dean sells his soul to bring Sam back from death. Sam jumps into the pit. Dean risks death to get Sam back out. Sam doesn’t look for Dean. Sam takes on the trials and is willing to die to complete them. Dean won’t let him. Dean tricks Sam into letting himself be possessed by an angel when he knows he wants to die. I guess, looking at this list, these arcs could also frequently be understood as “All the times Sam and Dean tried to give to the other something the other didn’t want, but was instead what they actually wanted for themselves.” Sam wanted a normal life for himself, so he tries to give it to Dean at the end of S5. Dean does what it takes to bring Sam back from death because that’s what he would want Sam to do for him. Sam wouldn’t have wanted Dean to look for him so he didn’t look for Dean in S8, and so on

[brightly_lit]

Well, thank you! What an awesome compliment.

I believe you're right that Sam is as wrapped up in Dean as Dean is in him; the relationship has just gone one direction for so long that Sam probably doesn't even realize it (Dean either). (Argh, robo!Sam in Mystery Spot! That always gets me right in the heart ....)

You are SOO right that Sam would think about what Dean wants and that Dean is really the one ruled by his emotions.

I too have been concerned the show would lose its steam if they weren't so wrapped up in each other, but I had a vision of what it could be like if their relationship were healthier (which I will describe in a comment below, and maybe in a fic, too!), and I found it more compelling, if anything, than what they have now ... because what they have now is so broken, there's hardly any satisfaction for me in their interactions anymore. :-(

I want them to remember what it was like to be HAPPY with each other instead of this long-suffering feeling that's happening lately.

YES! And yes to the hug, too!!

[strgazr04]

Yes it isn't as fulfilling as it used to be for me either. I think that's what I meant when I was trying to describe that long suffering feeling. I miss the happiness they had, the love they shared 'because you're my brother' and not having it like 'I love you in spite of all those stupid mistakes you just made'. It's almost like they have to love each other because they are related but they don't want to. Reminds me of that "you can't choose your family" line from Unusual Suspects. And to think, Sam got pissed at the cop who said it.

All I want is for them to be on the same team again, and not just out of obligation.