I think I should speak up and say that the twincest in the book(s) isn't presented in the brightest of lights. It's very clearly a Not Good Happy Thing and the characters involved are very obviously portrayed as Screwed The Hell Up. So it's squick-worthy, and intentionally so (hell, SPOILER, the male twin throws a small child out a tower window in the beginning of the book and his sister was present for it - two very screwed up individuals).
I totally agree, it was presented as pretty horrific of them - and I did read the part where they throw the little boy off the roof, I forgot about that, I actually found that quite interesting and evil and complex. I didn't explain myself well. My beef is not with the inclusion of the twincest, but basically with the fact that I had to see the twin sex scenes. I'm squeamish lol. Especially since Jaime is one twin, and Jamie is my twin's name, and I was just deeply disturbed...XD (Squick-worthy is my new favorite phrase, btw.)
Oh yeah, I can see where it'd be one of those things that would make someone put the book down. The sex didn't bother me much though, I think mostly because it was intended to be disturbing. I can get down with that.
Then again, I put the books down about halfway through #3, not because I hated them, but because it was very clear by then that any time I grew attached to a character, they were screwed. I'm not big on hopelessness and if anything (other than what had already happened) bad was going to happen to Dany... Well, I just don't want to know about it. ;)
What exit_eternity said. The twincest is explicitly a Very. Bad. Thing. And the repercussions of it really show up throughout the rest of the series.
That said, I cannot agree on your points of characterization either. While I dislike several characters and find others to be not all that well-written, I cannot say all of them are. Jaime Lannister's arc throughout the series has proven him to be one of my favorite characters in all of fantasy, as has Petyr Baelish's.
I'd say characterization is actually one of the good things about A Song of Ice and Fire as a whole.
But no, if you are easily squicked, not into political machinations and probably if you are not that big on history, then those are all reasons to avoid A Song of Ice and Fire.
The descriptions of battles and medieval brutality, even torture scenes are not for the faint of heart, and the 'grittiness' is usually referring to that, or to the sex scenes that don't just fade to black even if you wish they would.
Repercussions? As in actual consequences for the twincest? Might be worth a second look... I really wrote a lazy explanation. It's not so much that they are poorly characterized, but that I simply could not care about any of the characters. Their fates interested me but did not inspire any emotional attachments; intellectually I wanted to see how they turned out but emotionally I felt nothing for them. And I do indeed wish the sex scenes would fade to black, but I've read such things as Mists of Avalon (threesomes, etc.) and was happy to skip over the explicit-ness because I was so thoroughly invested in the characters, and even if I squirmed at the graphic nature of the scenes I believed them, and felt involved in the internal consequences for the characters. The sex seemed very...impersonal, in A Game of Thrones. I'm big on history (history minor!), but true, not so much politics. And I'm easily "squicked" on sex scenes for sure. (Why have I never heard this word before?? I'm in love with it! lol)
I tried to go back so I could remember my first impressions when reading AGoT... I've reread the whole series at least twice now.
But I see where you might not have fallen for any particular character in the first book. I just realized I didn't fall for my favorite characters until book 2. I guess I loved Dany at first sight... and I liked Cersei too. Eventually you get to see inside her head- and Jaime's too. That actually helps clarify just how insane the twincest is.
If you can finish the first book sometime- do try. It's weird but that entire doorstop of a book is more about setting up the game than playing it. The fun starts with Dany in book 2.
Just in case you wanted to know before you decided to re-read (it is a very long book) one of the biggest ones is that Cersei and Robert's kids are pretty screwed up...because they're not Robert's.
Which pretty much pushes over the first domino for the actual overarching plot.
Yeah I feel like I'm very, very alone in putting this up there...but oh well, there's somebody to dislike every book! :) The book failed mightily for me but that's not to say I wouldn't finish it someday - I'm curious about the ending now.
I have to disagree with you on... pretty much all points, although I do kind of agree there could be less sex. Also, as pretty much everyone before me said, the twincest is supposed to be Bad and Wrong. I can see how it would be a huge squick trigger, though, and ASOIAF has a ton of squick. It's definitely not for the faint of heart, as... a lot of people said, ahaha.
Anyway, I thought the characterization was pretty awesome, although characterization in any book is YMMV. I do think Jamie, Tyrion, and Littlefinger get the best of it, but they're... pretty far past where you got to. Also Sansa, surprisingly. She may seem like a terrible character now, but she started being pretty amazing to me around book three.
Honestly, my only complaint is that A Dance With Dragons is probably never going to come out. Ever. I think the series is awesome, and it hits all my storytelling kinks, but I can see how it'd be hard to get into.
I probably shouldn't have read so many spoiler reviews before starting the book; I discovered via negative reviews that a lot of people die, and I always feel frustrated when I invest my time in characters only to have them vanish. As I said above I explained myself badly - it wasn't the characterization, but the lack of emotion I felt for the characters. I wanted to see how they turned out, they interested me, but without feeling like I either loved or hated at least SOMEbody I couldn't feel inspired enough to keep going. I didn't connect with any of them. I seem to be standing alone in my dislike of the book though; I'm willing to give it another try, for the sake of the storytelling, but I think on some fundamental level the book is a fail for me because I didn't really 'fall' for anybody. I did want to see where the whole thing with the dragons got to, though. I'll save it for a rainy day lol.
Yeah, that's all understandable. Not everyone's going to like the characters in every book they read. I enjoyed this but I couldn't get into Dickens when I tried him, you know?
I admit, I didn't really connect with anyone early on, although I liked Ned. I only really started being all HOLY SHIT I LOVE EVERYONE when the shit hit the fan.
Maybe I didn't give it enough of an effort? 300 pages seems like time enough for things to start crackling but it DOES have a slow pace. Dickens is the same way, very slow, but for some reason 19th century writing just gets me going.
Everybody seems to agree that it takes time to get into it...I might have to make another attempt at it. I really don't want it to be an epic fail lol
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Apologies for the epic fail. I don't know why it's such a challenge for me to figure it out...>_
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Just a nitpick.
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I didn't explain myself well. My beef is not with the inclusion of the twincest, but basically with the fact that I had to see the twin sex scenes. I'm squeamish lol. Especially since Jaime is one twin, and Jamie is my twin's name, and I was just deeply disturbed...XD
(Squick-worthy is my new favorite phrase, btw.)
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Then again, I put the books down about halfway through #3, not because I hated them, but because it was very clear by then that any time I grew attached to a character, they were screwed. I'm not big on hopelessness and if anything (other than what had already happened) bad was going to happen to Dany... Well, I just don't want to know about it. ;)
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That said, I cannot agree on your points of characterization either. While I dislike several characters and find others to be not all that well-written, I cannot say all of them are. Jaime Lannister's arc throughout the series has proven him to be one of my favorite characters in all of fantasy, as has Petyr Baelish's.
I'd say characterization is actually one of the good things about A Song of Ice and Fire as a whole.
But no, if you are easily squicked, not into political machinations and probably if you are not that big on history, then those are all reasons to avoid A Song of Ice and Fire.
The descriptions of battles and medieval brutality, even torture scenes are not for the faint of heart, and the 'grittiness' is usually referring to that, or to the sex scenes that don't just fade to black even if you wish they would.
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I really wrote a lazy explanation. It's not so much that they are poorly characterized, but that I simply could not care about any of the characters. Their fates interested me but did not inspire any emotional attachments; intellectually I wanted to see how they turned out but emotionally I felt nothing for them. And I do indeed wish the sex scenes would fade to black, but I've read such things as Mists of Avalon (threesomes, etc.) and was happy to skip over the explicit-ness because I was so thoroughly invested in the characters, and even if I squirmed at the graphic nature of the scenes I believed them, and felt involved in the internal consequences for the characters. The sex seemed very...impersonal, in A Game of Thrones.
I'm big on history (history minor!), but true, not so much politics. And I'm easily "squicked" on sex scenes for sure. (Why have I never heard this word before?? I'm in love with it! lol)
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But I see where you might not have fallen for any particular character in the first book. I just realized I didn't fall for my favorite characters until book 2. I guess I loved Dany at first sight... and I liked Cersei too. Eventually you get to see inside her head- and Jaime's too. That actually helps clarify just how insane the twincest is.
If you can finish the first book sometime- do try. It's weird but that entire doorstop of a book is more about setting up the game than playing it. The fun starts with Dany in book 2.
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Just in case you wanted to know before you decided to re-read (it is a very long book) one of the biggest ones is that Cersei and Robert's kids are pretty screwed up...because they're not Robert's.
Which pretty much pushes over the first domino for the actual overarching plot.
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The book failed mightily for me but that's not to say I wouldn't finish it someday - I'm curious about the ending now.
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Anyway, I thought the characterization was pretty awesome, although characterization in any book is YMMV. I do think Jamie, Tyrion, and Littlefinger get the best of it, but they're... pretty far past where you got to. Also Sansa, surprisingly. She may seem like a terrible character now, but she started being pretty amazing to me around book three.
Honestly, my only complaint is that A Dance With Dragons is probably never going to come out. Ever. I think the series is awesome, and it hits all my storytelling kinks, but I can see how it'd be hard to get into.
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As I said above I explained myself badly - it wasn't the characterization, but the lack of emotion I felt for the characters. I wanted to see how they turned out, they interested me, but without feeling like I either loved or hated at least SOMEbody I couldn't feel inspired enough to keep going. I didn't connect with any of them.
I seem to be standing alone in my dislike of the book though; I'm willing to give it another try, for the sake of the storytelling, but I think on some fundamental level the book is a fail for me because I didn't really 'fall' for anybody.
I did want to see where the whole thing with the dragons got to, though. I'll save it for a rainy day lol.
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I admit, I didn't really connect with anyone early on, although I liked Ned. I only really started being all HOLY SHIT I LOVE EVERYONE when the shit hit the fan.
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Everybody seems to agree that it takes time to get into it...I might have to make another attempt at it. I really don't want it to be an epic fail lol
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