Love this meta. Your thoughts on the episode's contribution to the evolution of the Buffy/Giles relationship, as well as to Xander's behavior in The Pack are really insightful.
I think it's because it's a moment that very nicely illustrates the situation the Scoobies are in whenever they happen to trip and fall into the most dangerous aspects of Buffy's life (early on, but, to a lesser extent, even to the end) - that they literally can't do anything for her, and an attempt at aid may only end up getting her injured or killed. Yes, this is very true. The inherent and unavoidable imbalance of power eventually drives both Willow and Xander to behave in reprehensible ways. They both feel powerless and resent it, I think. Buffy is very young and doesn't have the skills needed to negotiate the situation. Further, she is ambivalent about her power, and desperately wants to be one of the gang. I think this explains some of her passive acceptance of their censure whenever she steps across the behavioral lines they draw for her. Giles is
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Further, she is ambivalent about her power, and desperately wants to be one of the gang. I think this explains some of her passive acceptance of their censure whenever she steps across the behavioral lines they draw for her.
I've always thought that was really interesting, especially when you travel down the line from s1/2 to s7, and you see how much she's changed in that respect, when she's long since abandoned the high school girl who just wants to fit in and be normal and safe.
I think this explains some of her passive acceptance of their censure whenever she steps across the behavioral lines they draw for her.
And Buffy's confidence will continue to dwindle over the course of the series, to the point that even in Touched she's saying "people try to connect with me and I just slip away". Which of course is Buffy being an unreliable narrator, and I think Spike's response in that scene emphasizes that, but I'm not sure how much we're supposed to see that as truth? Its heartbreaking though because over and over again Buffy has connected, has reached out, is the one who broke the rules by letting friends into her life.
Unfortunately the Slayer package did not come with improved communication or relational skills.
Giles is no help, as he was brought up to believe that Slayers don't have friends without superpowers. He's still very traditional even when he would like to think later on that he isn't; and I think he never quite crosses that divide or makes the leap all the way to the other side the way Buffy
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I've always assumed that Dr. Gregory was killed to give her convenient access to possible virgins, and getting him to do her eggs was just to avoid waste. I also thought the inappropriateness of the Ms. French seducing students was pointed out by Willow and Buffy, but it's true they didn't take it seriously - it was left at inappropriate, not dangerous predation. Then they mostly abandon the idea of young people with much older ones, aside from stray comments in Angel (the episode, not the series.) I can fanwank character behavior in that Spike, Angel, and Anya aren't in a human socially established position that relates to their age and power over younger people.(Though they could pass in specific situations I guess? The logistics of how exactly they interact with the human world are fuzzy to me.) Anya is after Sunnydale High, but only as much as the other human Buffy characters are at the same time. Meanwhile, Mrs. French is at first a predator they can understand as deriving her power from her status in human society. That society
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I've always assumed that Dr. Gregory was killed to give her convenient access to possible virgins, and getting him to do her eggs was just to avoid waste.
That was pretty much what I had to conclude, but I couldn't figure what made her target him specifically, given there are a ton of men in Sunnydale High (I mean, I know why from the 4th wall perspective -- Gregory is killed off to establish an emotional tether for Buffy when he dies -- but sometimes I find myself getting caught up in the little details, trying to make them fit even when they don't). He almost certainly wasn't a virgin, but part of me wonders at the casting choice.
It's harder for them to apply the rules to supernatural lovers.Totally true. And the actors for the 200+ year-old people only look like they're in their 20s, which is why it doesn't create a squick factor, but there are times where I'd wonder if it should. Then again, it might just be one of those Western biases, when a twenty year age difference feels...off, let alone several hundred (or a thousand).
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He almost certainly wasn't a virgin, but part of me wonders at the casting choice.
I can't think of an in-character reason for choosing him specifically, unless the bug really wanted to talk about herself in class. But the casting choice might be for that same 4th wall reason and what you mention about kindly adult men. The age helps with the father figure image. Especially with the tough/looks-like-he'll-lay-into-you-but-he-truly-cares element they gave him, which is probably what Buffy hopes is going on with Hank.
Re: age, I don't think it's that much of a Western bias, since younger woman/older man is still acceptable. There can be some scorn for a twenty+ plus difference, but even then, I don't think we've completely internalized the idea of wrongness in a power imbalance. Though the degree of internalization differs.
I'm never sure how much the age differences should bother me. But yes, there's always something weird when I think about a young inexperienced woman with a much more knowledgeable man, even when I ship them.
There can be some scorn for a twenty+ plus difference, but even then, I don't think we've completely internalized the idea of wrongness in a power imbalance.
I think for me it's mostly just the idea that the older person was probably having sex in college before the other was even born. And in Buffy's case (and Xander's), the other party in question was having sex before their parents' parents' parents (etc.) were born. It's just...weird to me. I feel like there should be equalness in the bedroom, but that doesn't seem achievable with that much of an age (hell, a generational) gap. Especially when it came to Buffy and Angel, since she had no prior experience. I don't feel squickyness with Buffy/Spike, but I think that's because they feel equal to me sexually at that point -- she's had enough to experience to have control over what's going on. But clearly that's me, and I'm going to have to figure out what Buffy herself thought without my input before I start dealing with them.
The Prom is maybe like Mother's Day. Buffy does the
( ... )
And while it makes me feel weird for suggesting it, I'd wonder if part of the reason Xander is able to justify his (attempted) assault on Buffy in The Pack is because of how hyper-aware he is of her separateness. It's the “Slayer” he attacks (he only refers to her as “Slayer” in that scene), not Buffy, his friend, and when he later talks to Willow about Buffy while contained in his cage, he's once again talking about the Slayer, and not necessarily Buffy.I don't think it sounds weird. There's a lot of rhetoric about how something is wrong because a 'defenseless' or 'innocent' or 'someone not of your own size' was hurt. Those words aren't synonymous, but sometimes they're used as if they are. And while there's a lot of truth to that, I've heard it used to suggest it wasn't so bad to be aggressive (a catchall word in this context) towards people who could defend themselves, who had power. I've used it that way sometimes myself, for certain specific things. I would naturally justify
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Re: Part 2bone_dry1013September 3 2013, 03:54:03 UTC
What makes me feel weird is just thinking about Xander trying to rape Buffy at all. I know the Magical Hyena Spirit also made him want to kill Willow (that seemed like what he wanted to do), but thinking of Xander in the context of that much violence is sort of hard for me to swallow. It's not to say he's incapable of violence, but something as extreme as rape is a different matter. I think that's why he had to dehumanize her to justify it, even under the hex: because he couldn't rape his friend Buffy, but he could the Slayer.
Buffy shouldn't have looked so upset and portrayed so vulnerable when Spike attempted to rape her, because she's used to enduring violence and dishing it out.
Well, that's just disgusting. I'd rant about that, but I'm just going to choose to not.
Any girl or woman can be raped, but Buffy's character elements can and have been used to justify and/or explain sexual assault...the notion that being superhuman makes you less human, less a person. And that's a trap that a lot of characters seem to fall into,
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Re: Part 2tigerpetalsSeptember 4 2013, 21:15:38 UTC
I'm sorry about the headache. I think you make sense!
I think rape requires dehumanization (of one kind or another), so I agree that he used 'Slayer' to do that. It would definitely contribute to her isolation, especially since she thinks he can't remember it and it's just for her alone to deal with. Not talking about it would be part of the isolation. She might not have done it even if Xander had been honest, but as it is she probably thought it would be too unfair to bring it up. Despite her early struggle, in every season Buffy asserts that she is always separate. Sometimes more than once per season (I can think of instances off the top of my head, except for season three).
Well, that's just disgusting. I'd rant about that, but I'm just going to choose to not.
My reaction at the time. Insert noperocket.gif.
I like your Buffy tangents. Buffy does come to think of herself as less than human (fears it from the beginning), and it comes out a lot by season six. It's hard and painful for me to watch.
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I think it's because it's a moment that very nicely illustrates the situation the Scoobies are in whenever they happen to trip and fall into the most dangerous aspects of Buffy's life (early on, but, to a lesser extent, even to the end) - that they literally can't do anything for her, and an attempt at aid may only end up getting her injured or killed. Yes, this is very true. The inherent and unavoidable imbalance of power eventually drives both Willow and Xander to behave in reprehensible ways. They both feel powerless and resent it, I think. Buffy is very young and doesn't have the skills needed to negotiate the situation. Further, she is ambivalent about her power, and desperately wants to be one of the gang. I think this explains some of her passive acceptance of their censure whenever she steps across the behavioral lines they draw for her. Giles is ( ... )
Reply
Further, she is ambivalent about her power, and desperately wants to be one of the gang. I think this explains some of her passive acceptance of their censure whenever she steps across the behavioral lines they draw for her.
I've always thought that was really interesting, especially when you travel down the line from s1/2 to s7, and you see how much she's changed in that respect, when she's long since abandoned the high school girl who just wants to fit in and be normal and safe.
Reply
And Buffy's confidence will continue to dwindle over the course of the series, to the point that even in Touched she's saying "people try to connect with me and I just slip away". Which of course is Buffy being an unreliable narrator, and I think Spike's response in that scene emphasizes that, but I'm not sure how much we're supposed to see that as truth? Its heartbreaking though because over and over again Buffy has connected, has reached out, is the one who broke the rules by letting friends into her life.
Unfortunately the Slayer package did not come with improved communication or relational skills.
Giles is no help, as he was brought up to believe that Slayers don't have friends without superpowers. He's still very traditional even when he would like to think later on that he isn't; and I think he never quite crosses that divide or makes the leap all the way to the other side the way Buffy ( ... )
Reply
Reply
That was pretty much what I had to conclude, but I couldn't figure what made her target him specifically, given there are a ton of men in Sunnydale High (I mean, I know why from the 4th wall perspective -- Gregory is killed off to establish an emotional tether for Buffy when he dies -- but sometimes I find myself getting caught up in the little details, trying to make them fit even when they don't). He almost certainly wasn't a virgin, but part of me wonders at the casting choice.
It's harder for them to apply the rules to supernatural lovers.Totally true. And the actors for the 200+ year-old people only look like they're in their 20s, which is why it doesn't create a squick factor, but there are times where I'd wonder if it should. Then again, it might just be one of those Western biases, when a twenty year age difference feels...off, let alone several hundred (or a thousand). ( ... )
Reply
I can't think of an in-character reason for choosing him specifically, unless the bug really wanted to talk about herself in class. But the casting choice might be for that same 4th wall reason and what you mention about kindly adult men. The age helps with the father figure image. Especially with the tough/looks-like-he'll-lay-into-you-but-he-truly-cares element they gave him, which is probably what Buffy hopes is going on with Hank.
Re: age, I don't think it's that much of a Western bias, since younger woman/older man is still acceptable. There can be some scorn for a twenty+ plus difference, but even then, I don't think we've completely internalized the idea of wrongness in a power imbalance. Though the degree of internalization differs.
I'm never sure how much the age differences should bother me. But yes, there's always something weird when I think about a young inexperienced woman with a much more knowledgeable man, even when I ship them.
( ... )
Reply
I think for me it's mostly just the idea that the older person was probably having sex in college before the other was even born. And in Buffy's case (and Xander's), the other party in question was having sex before their parents' parents' parents (etc.) were born. It's just...weird to me. I feel like there should be equalness in the bedroom, but that doesn't seem achievable with that much of an age (hell, a generational) gap. Especially when it came to Buffy and Angel, since she had no prior experience. I don't feel squickyness with Buffy/Spike, but I think that's because they feel equal to me sexually at that point -- she's had enough to experience to have control over what's going on.
But clearly that's me, and I'm going to have to figure out what Buffy herself thought without my input before I start dealing with them.
The Prom is maybe like Mother's Day. Buffy does the ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Buffy shouldn't have looked so upset and portrayed so vulnerable when Spike attempted to rape her, because she's used to enduring violence and dishing it out.
Well, that's just disgusting. I'd rant about that, but I'm just going to choose to not.
Any girl or woman can be raped, but Buffy's character elements can and have been used to justify and/or explain sexual assault...the notion that being superhuman makes you less human, less a person. And that's a trap that a lot of characters seem to fall into, ( ... )
Reply
I think rape requires dehumanization (of one kind or another), so I agree that he used 'Slayer' to do that. It would definitely contribute to her isolation, especially since she thinks he can't remember it and it's just for her alone to deal with. Not talking about it would be part of the isolation. She might not have done it even if Xander had been honest, but as it is she probably thought it would be too unfair to bring it up. Despite her early struggle, in every season Buffy asserts that she is always separate. Sometimes more than once per season (I can think of instances off the top of my head, except for season three).
Well, that's just disgusting. I'd rant about that, but I'm just going to choose to not.
My reaction at the time. Insert noperocket.gif.
I like your Buffy tangents. Buffy does come to think of herself as less than human (fears it from the beginning), and it comes out a lot by season six. It's hard and painful for me to watch.
Reply
It's hard and painful for me to watch.
See, for me it's endlessly fascinating to watch her fall apart, but then again, I'm awful.
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