After all, Eleanora de Toledo was extremely petite (not to mention emanciated due to her last illness), and she still was buried with a bodice under her now famous gown. Granted, this is a doublet and Eleanora's was a gown, but the principle of cut and construction is quite similar.
Because Eleanora's red velvet bodice was so decayed, it was impossible to figure out how it was stiffened. But it would have had some stiff canvas interlining it at the very least. I don't think Eleonora di Toledo should be considered an extremely petite woman. Based on the examination of her grave and remains, the skeleton revealed a lady ca. 1,58 m. tall, and she was musculous due to her active lifestyle. Unlike Tuscan ladies, she always accompanied her husband on hunts and travels, and spent a fair deal on the horseback. Based on modern standards she definitely weren't tall, but she was quite normal sized for her time, and in better shape
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I meant cardboard, as in linen stiffened with glue. The way I've written it above makes it appear I suggest a linen stiffened with either glue or cardboard...
Something I've been contemplating (but haven't done anything about) - the double set of garments (assuming the red velvet bodice was attached to a skirt) means that you won't have any pesky "look, see the fabric of my shift!" moments, or "why'd I make a side-back laced kirtle when I can't guarantee I'll have help dressing?" moments. And Eleanora was tiny - she may not have been terribly short, but her waist is the equivalent of a size 0 or 2, I think. It's terribly demoralizing to be adjusting patterns to fit, and not have to adjust anything beyond adding 4-6" to the waist :) I'm looking forward to seeing pictures, and the eventual write-up, of your green doublet.
How do you manage the skirt such that you don't have a gap where one side of the waistband meets the other? That was the "look here's my shift" problem - even when laced so that both sides of the bodice meet, if the kirtle is a dark color, then the shift will show just by contrast, unless you do something weird. Same thing with a stand-alone skirt, though in that case, it's much easier to have sufficient overlap.
Hmmm... One of the problems that many people run into is not putting enough fabric in their skirts. If you put enough fabric, it will "close" automatically.
As for stand alone skirts, I don't wear them. Skirts should be pointed to something, whether a bodice or a doublet, but never alone.
Same with men's breeches. They pointed them too, which is important since belts were worn on top of the doublet and not a means to hold your pants. In the case of breeches, I don't point mine since as a girl a) it would pose a problem in order to go to the bathroom; and b) I am not built as a guy, so they stand in my waist. But I point Marcellus'. Guys do not have the bathroom issue, and their pants do fall down. :-)
I'm doing a lot of reading about Eleanor of Toledo's burial clothing right now, and it seems that current thought states that her bodice wasn't really stiffened. It was padded, presumably for warmth. It seems to be what we'd call a waistcoat in English terms, worn under another garment for warmth, not for shaping.
Yup. But even padding would have stiffened it. It's difficult to tell, as it is very decayed, but the other theory is that it had at least some cardboard (linen stiffened with glue as pointed out by Operafantomnet), Spanish style. Eleanora was Spanish, not Florentine, so there is that theory there. :-)
The truth is, we shall never know, but my money is that it needed to be shaped.
But I think we underestimate the shaping ability of multiple layers and padding. In other periods I've done, I found that people didn't wear the proper about of layers, and that's why they looked like they needed corsets. But with the proper amount of layers, they didn't need as much stiffening as you would have thought.
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Because Eleanora's red velvet bodice was so decayed, it was impossible to figure out how it was stiffened. But it would have had some stiff canvas interlining it at the very least. I don't think Eleonora di Toledo should be considered an extremely petite woman. Based on the examination of her grave and remains, the skeleton revealed a lady ca. 1,58 m. tall, and she was musculous due to her active lifestyle. Unlike Tuscan ladies, she always accompanied her husband on hunts and travels, and spent a fair deal on the horseback. Based on modern standards she definitely weren't tall, but she was quite normal sized for her time, and in better shape ( ... )
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I meant cardboard, as in linen stiffened with glue. The way I've written it above makes it appear I suggest a linen stiffened with either glue or cardboard...
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And Eleanora was tiny - she may not have been terribly short, but her waist is the equivalent of a size 0 or 2, I think. It's terribly demoralizing to be adjusting patterns to fit, and not have to adjust anything beyond adding 4-6" to the waist :)
I'm looking forward to seeing pictures, and the eventual write-up, of your green doublet.
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I'll write something later. With pictures!
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As for stand alone skirts, I don't wear them. Skirts should be pointed to something, whether a bodice or a doublet, but never alone.
Same with men's breeches. They pointed them too, which is important since belts were worn on top of the doublet and not a means to hold your pants. In the case of breeches, I don't point mine since as a girl a) it would pose a problem in order to go to the bathroom; and b) I am not built as a guy, so they stand in my waist. But I point Marcellus'. Guys do not have the bathroom issue, and their pants do fall down. :-)
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I'm doing a lot of reading about Eleanor of Toledo's burial clothing right now, and it seems that current thought states that her bodice wasn't really stiffened. It was padded, presumably for warmth. It seems to be what we'd call a waistcoat in English terms, worn under another garment for warmth, not for shaping.
Reply
The truth is, we shall never know, but my money is that it needed to be shaped.
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But I think we underestimate the shaping ability of multiple layers and padding. In other periods I've done, I found that people didn't wear the proper about of layers, and that's why they looked like they needed corsets. But with the proper amount of layers, they didn't need as much stiffening as you would have thought.
Like you said we'll never know for sure.
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