Torchwood Is Making Me Cross. Perhaps Fandom Too; I Can't Tell. Help?

[beccatoria]

Torchwood's got some well-problematic stuff going on with race. From what I can gather from my utterly-disconnected-to-current-fandom-way-out-of-date-radar, some people are trying to deny this with the whole, "british racism is different from american racism," thing. Which it is, but not in any way that makes Torchwood less problematic about race

Comments

This is very interesting...

[hmpf]

I can't really weigh in, though, because I haven't seen Torchwood. But it's been interesting seeing all the radically different reactions to the new season on my flist in the last few days.

Re: This is very interesting...

[beccatoria]

Hey, at least glad it's interesting. :)

A comment by Neil Gaiman about Torchwood just about killed me just now:

[hmpf]

"yesterday I composed an entire thing in my head I didn't write down about Why The People in Torchwood Season One Are All Too Stupid To Live -- including the astonishingly puzzling incident where someone in 1941 has written something down on paper with black ink (a medium that will last legibly for centuries if kept out of the sun), and, unaccountably worried that ink on paper will fade and become unreadable in time, first she takes a prototype Polaroid photo of it, and then writes some of it in blood and puts it in a coffee can in a damp cellar, because these media will still be readable seventy years later. Why she didn't make a model of it out of chocolate as well, I will never know." - Source: http://syndicated.livejournal.com/officialgaiman/423324.html

Re: A comment by Neil Gaiman about Torchwood just about killed me just now:

[beccatoria]

That's hilarious! :D

[coffeejunkii]

I want to be able to praise Torchwood for Ianto and Gwen and criticise it for Tosh's stereotypical "techie Asian", and the habit they have of killing off women of colour (and storing them in REFRIGERATORS; oh comics fandom, I miss you) and for those two issues not to be conflated.

i somehow don't see why one wouldn't be able to discuss both of these things in relationship to torchwood? television shows have multiple and often contradictory meanings in them, so i find it entirely reasonable that torchwood's portrayal of race and ethnicity could have both helpful or not so helpful aspects to it [and i say "helpful" here to avoid "good"/"bad", which are such loaded terms].

i can't really speak to welsh issues because i don't know anything about them, but i think there are definitely problems with how torchwood portrays tosh and supporting characters of color.

[madenglishbloke]

there are problems with how torchwood (and dr who!) (and just about any show run by RTD) portrays anyone who isnt actively bisexual - even gays and lesbians are given short shrift, but there is seemingly no room in that 'verse for heterosexuals.

[coffeejunkii]

well, considering how rampantly heteronormative the rest of television is, i don't really care, i have to say.

[madenglishbloke]

i dont care what a persons sexual orientation is - who they choose to do what with is their buisness, wether they are a real person, or a fictional charecter

[anonymous]

the pedant in me would like to point out 2 things.

1 - whether it exists or not, in the form you describe or not, "welsh oppression" is NOT racism, as the vast majority of the welsh are white anglo-saxon, which incidentally is the same as most of those doing the oppression.
instead, its something that could probably be more accurately summed up as "regionalism"< which ties in to my second point

[madenglishbloke]

oh FFS - that was me!
mind you, how many other opinionated mancunians do you have on your FList?

Shows with Mancunian heroes...

[hmpf]

Life on Mars? Everyone there, including the hero, is Mancunian.

Re: Shows with Mancunian heroes...

[madenglishbloke]

IIRC, with one single, solitary exception, all the main charecters were played by people from the home counties - the only one who wasnt actually came from yorkshire.
and again, they gave it to manchester because cardiff was busy with a couple of other shows - they didnt think it would come to anything, so gave it to the regions in the hope it would die quickly - notice how quick they were to move the sequel to london when it was obvious they had a runaway success on their hands.

[spiralsheep]

I don't know if it's any reassurance but the fail I've seen directed at members of my flist about the most recent episode of Torchwood had nothing to do with Welshness at all. In fact, now that you've brought it to my attention, the absence of Welshness is actually quite marked (I even saw someone using a Scottish example).

I think I'm also feeling emo and over-the-top-wronged on account of being...as I always have been...uncertain how to express my feelings about welsh oppression.

I find it extremely difficult to talk about any issue which feels close to home for me so I can sympathise. Remember how defensive I was when I commented to you about racist bombings? I keep nearly posting those comments on my journal and then not because I don't want the scrutiny and the judgement on a subject I'm not capable of discussing with people who won't get it.

but will never be on the same playing field as "our stereotypes mean the police are killing us."It was once though and there's every reason not to forget that. Also, the Welsh and Scots

[beccatoria]

now that you've brought it to my attention, the absence of Welshness is actually quite marked (I even saw someone using a Scottish example)

That is something of a comfort in that it means I'm at least reading the currents of LJ slightly wrong (though while it was slightly precipitated the most recent episodes stupidity, this wasn't primarily triggered by the most recent episode). Though it's less of a comfort to me because they're still apparently using the whole "white-on-white" oppression as an excuse, which is...what I have the problem with as it makes the issue look assinine, and - I feel absurd about this - it makes me wonder why they're not talking more about welsh people. I mean, dammit, if they're going to have examples, why not welsh ones since it's set there! Which is ludicrous, because I also don't want them to use welsh examples! HAHA! I AM IRRATIONAL! /hysterical humour.

I find it extremely difficult to talk about any issue which feels close to home for me so I can sympathise. Remember how defensive I was when I

[madenglishbloke]

he just doesn't identify with the term "english" or even "british" all that much when self labelling. But his cousins in wales, apparently, do identify with the label "welsh" much more strongly.ahh - this old chestnut

[spiralsheep]

I mean, dammit, if they're going to have examples, why not welsh ones since it's set there! Which is ludicrous, because I also don't want them to use welsh examples! HAHA! I AM IRRATIONAL! /hysterical humour.

::giggles with you (not at you)::

I do remember that, and I also feel, and felt, profoundly grateful that you were willing to discuss the issue with me

It made a nice change for me to feel "safe" to do so.

And while I hate to see anyone afraid of posting something that damn important to them for fear of scrutiny...I do also get it. At least on some level. There are some things we are not emotionally ready to defend?

More like there are some things we're not prepared to be attacked on... AGAIN. ::wry face::

I can't comment on the details of Torchwood because my viewing has been sporadic and unattentive but it's interesting to hear they've cast brown Welsh(ish) people.

he told me how even though he thinks of himself as specifically a chinese person from britain, he just doesn't identify with the term "english" or even "