Tiptree thoughts

[astolat]

rivkat says pretty much what I have to say about the Tiptree-longlisted fanfic issue here, and jury member matt-ruff makes a great post about the various objections over hereI see no reason that fanfic based on sources still under copyright shouldn't be considered for awards that don't have a pro-publication requirement, and in particular for an award for "the

Comments

[kassrachel]

Well-said. Brava.

[lovessong]

The link for Cydonia is up in her Yahoo!Group's archive -- I know for certain because I joined today specifically to find it, after seeing folks praise it. You may get an error message when you click it, but that's just because there's a stray period at the end of the link. I'm reluctant to post the link publicly, since Em chose to make it available there, and not to link to it on her regular site.

[lovessong]

Oh, but I *did* mean to link to her Yahoo!Group -- here it is: Emland.

[kudra2324]

can someone tell me what cydonia is (other than, obviously, a story by em brunson? :)). i keep seeing it mentioned in threads about the whole tiptree debate, and i've read and loved other things she's written, and i have no idea what anyone is talking about.

thanks! (and sorry to bust in on astolat's only somewhat related thread.)

[lovessong]

It's an unfinished TS mpreg, although it doesn't follow many of the typical mpreg conventions (she says, as if she had an exhaustive knowledge of mpreg conventions). It's been suggested as a better example of a serious mpreg that Em's written, as opposed to the crack-fic, written for a challenge, that was long-listed by Tiptree.

[coffeeandink]

I was thinking about a Tiptree challenge, in fact. ;)

Though the issue with serial numbers is one reason why I am troubled by the thought of nominating Tiptree for fanfiction. A lot of fanfic depends on its transgressive effect (that is, fanfic which *does* have a transgressive effect) on a knowledge of canon material which it's not reasonable to expect to be widely known (as is more generally the case with what's essentially fanfic for, say, Shakespeare or the Matter of Britain); some fanfic has an especially conservative effect for the same reason, that is, when the characters adhere much more strictly to gender norms than the canonical versions do.

[astolat]

Let's do it! Seriously. I don't know if the Tiptree has a specific nominating window to tie it to, but even just doing it with no deliberate connection, I think it would be a great multifandom challenge.

The serial number thing -- I agree about the transgressive effect coming from the source, and that it's important to at least have a sense of the source, but really, a lot of the fandoms we write for are likely to be just as well-known to a mainstream audience as Shakespeare or the Matter of Britain or Sherlock Holmes. (Have you ever heard cesperanza's extremely sad story of teaching League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and having the class go, "um, so, who is this Moriarty guy

[aquaeri]

Sorry to just jump in randomly here. And I'll try to get it right this time.

The serial number thing -- I agree about the transgressive effect coming from the source, and that it's important to at least have a sense of the source

This seems to me particularly relevant to the Tiptree and notions of gender. Because the whole point about transgressiveness is that it's always relative to a cultural context, and I think there's an additional issue about the fact that TV shows etc form a large part of the current cultural context.

[coffeeandink]

Maybe I'm underestimating how popular House is, but I think that many people *wouldn't* recognize Hugh Laurie's face -- but yes, granted, general idea of police procedural and basic Star Trek info.

I'm conflicted about the idea of submitting stuff to the Tiptree and/or the general inclusion of fanfiction in professional awards, but I'd be happy to help run the challenge if you just wanted to run one for fan-self-defined genderbending fanfiction and let the nominations fall where they may. Or you can stick to your original idea and run it without me--no offense taken.

(Bonus points for using a takeoff on a Tiptree title? She had the very best titles.)

The Tiptree does have a time window attached (I'm not sure whether it's a year *from* publication, or the year *of* publication), although they've made exceptions before for work that didn't reach the judges in time.

[raveninthewind]

this story might not be doing something remarkable compared against the body of fanfic, it very well *might* be doing something worthy of note compared against the body of other nominations.
I handn't thought of it that way. You're right, it changes how I look at the nomination.

So, you know, a crackfic CSI/HP mpreg angst-heavy h/c crossover is not the poster child I would have picked, it's not a story I liked, it's not a kink I'm personally interested in, I don't think it's brilliantly written
This was my reaction in a nutshell.

(though Em has written some brilliant things
I agree.

I found this exploration of gender more interesting, gender switching/body sharing being such a tried-and-true genre convention:
http://lobelia321.livejournal.com/455307.html

[rydra_wong]

I don't think it's unfair that people are criticizing it or even mocking it; that's the necessary corollary of feeling that it's not inappropriate that it was nominated.

I do think that it's unfair that people are criticizing/mocking it without any knowledge of its context, though.

Personally, I don't like the story; it's not my kink, and, subject aside, I think the prose style warrants serious criticism. But criticizing it for being bizarre or silly without appreciating that it's a self-proclaimed "crackfic", or that it's a challenge response, is missing the point.

"Touched By Venom" (a.k.a. The Venom Cock Book) has also been shredded by criticism, but it seems clear that it is aspiring to be a serious literary work with serious things to say about gender relations.

There's no indication that "Arcana" intended to do that, and good reason to believe that it was intended as a fun way to wallow in a favourite kink/cliche.

If people were discussing it in terms of the Id Vortex, etc. - that could actually be interesting, although I'd

Em did give permission

[taverymate]

And as a result, it's had an extremely unfair effect on the writer - who, according to her, didn't even know about the longlisting until yesterday (contrary to the claims that she gave her permission)

Actually, Em DOES explicitedly say that she gave permission for the story and for her name to be attached to it back in December. That info is now buried in a collapsed thread, so perhaps you missed it.

Em says she did give permission - http://janissa11.livejournal.com/176091.html?thread=2295003#t2295003

I admit I'm a bit puzzled by Em saying that she gave permission, then saying that she was totally thrown by the long-listing. Granted, it might have come as a surprise that it actually happened. But long-listing was clearly always a possibility, if not a probability, for any nominated story.

Re: Em did give permission

[maygra]

Because having someone contact you to make sure the name is correct and the work is being submitted for a nomination and actually making the nomination list are two different things is what I've gathered from both waht Em says she knew and what Matt Rush and others have posted about how the actual nominating process work

Re: Em did give permission

[astolat]

It's never a problem until you find your stuff linked to a Focus on Family site identifying you as a pornographer.

Ahahaha, okay, I realize that's not funny, except it hit me that way. *g* Of course, the FoF people wouldn't ask permission to link in the first place.