I do think what we are seeing is some growth on Sam's part. Like you said, it's not that he wont save Dean but there's a line he won't cross. Iin S4 they showed us through flasbacks how he did try, unsuccessfully, to sell his soul to bring Dean back from Hell. So at one time he would've crossed that line but not anymore
( ... )
since he was four, his prime directive has been to take care of Sam. Having that ingrained into at such a young age as part of a tragedy, it isn't going to be easy for Dean to give it up. Regardless of how John presented that expectation to him, it would've been so easy to twist that expectation in his(Dean's) mind into something more (save Sam at all costs).
Brilliant, brilliant observation. Save Sammy -- by any means necessary. And Dean partially alluded to this himself, way back in S1:
"For you or Dad, the things I'm willing to do or kill, it's just, uh .... it scares me."
So at one time he would've crossed that line but not anymore
Yeah. I think Sam has seen first hand what happens when deals are made. That said though I would hate it if Dean was in a place where he wasn't supposed to be (like Hell) and Sam did nothing to get him out. I know we saw that when Dean was in Purgatory - only Sam didn't know that (that's my excuse anyway. That story line was pretty horrible…)
As horrible as Kevin's death is, it easier for Dean to face than doing anything horrible to Sam, the person he has been responsible for most of his life.
Ah, that's a good point. He seems to be skirting around the actual thing he did rather than face up to it. I really think he expected Sam to let it go much easier than this (like Sam has done in the past). Instead Sam has stood up and said - no, there are certain things that aren't ok.
If he has failed at his "prime directive", where does that leave him?And this. THIS. Unfortunately Dean will only be thinking that Sam doesn't love him enough to save him (even though he didn
( ... )
I agree with you! It scares me a little that Dean believes he did the RIGHT thing saving his brother's life over and over again. In S8 finale Dean placed his brother's life before countless people who are suffering from the demons walking the earth. I thought Dean knew he just had to because he loved Sam too much to let go, but he believes it is right? He and Sam were not the only ones who worked their asses off to close the gates of Hell, there were also innocent ones killed as collateral damage. I understand that he was desperate to talk Sam out of his sacrifice back then, but after some time he still could use "right" to describe what he did in the church... I think, maybe, his hunter self should know better? But maybe in defending himself he just let the word slip. I dunno.
No, I think that is how Dean sees everything, through a Sam-filter first, everything else, hunting, saving people, comes second, or is viewed through the Sam-filter first. It's not rational or reasonable and goes back to the conditioning that auntmo9 mentions above...
It's why Sam needs to say these things to Dean, and why it's going to take something monumental from Dean to understand that Sam still loves him. For a man with such serious self esteem issues, this is going to be very painful.
i liked the 1st half, got distracted in the 1st half of it,Sam in shorts and the yoga and that distraction continued i dont remember the last 5 minutes. i need to watch again friday
I get that people are feeling Dean's hurt, and Dean's inability to read Sam's rejection of being on the receiving or giving end of that particular destructive model of love as anything but a rejection of love. I get that there's a sense of extreme risk, because so much of Dean is tied up in that language he speaks. But. Sam just got translated into that language and it literally erased him. Sam CANNOT try to reach out to Dean by speaking that language, accepting those terms. That way madness lies. He has to take the risk of standing by other terms.
Thank you for commenting on that, uh, remarkable piece of spn_heavymeta "meta."
That was the point in reading reactions where my jaw went through the floorboards and ended up in the basement.
I think the person who commented on Monica's post about how Dean and Sam are operating on different definitions of love was spot-on. And I understand where the urge to yell at Sam to MAKE Dean understand are coming from. But I really don't think that's in Sam's power, or Dean's.
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Brilliant, brilliant observation. Save Sammy -- by any means necessary. And Dean partially alluded to this himself, way back in S1:
"For you or Dad, the things I'm willing to do or kill, it's just, uh .... it scares me."
Even Dean knows something's messed up there.
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Yeah. I think Sam has seen first hand what happens when deals are made. That said though I would hate it if Dean was in a place where he wasn't supposed to be (like Hell) and Sam did nothing to get him out. I know we saw that when Dean was in Purgatory - only Sam didn't know that (that's my excuse anyway. That story line was pretty horrible…)
As horrible as Kevin's death is, it easier for Dean to face than doing anything horrible to Sam, the person he has been responsible for most of his life.
Ah, that's a good point. He seems to be skirting around the actual thing he did rather than face up to it. I really think he expected Sam to let it go much easier than this (like Sam has done in the past). Instead Sam has stood up and said - no, there are certain things that aren't ok.
If he has failed at his "prime directive", where does that leave him?And this. THIS. Unfortunately Dean will only be thinking that Sam doesn't love him enough to save him (even though he didn ( ... )
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It scares me a little that Dean believes he did the RIGHT thing saving his brother's life over and over again. In S8 finale Dean placed his brother's life before countless people who are suffering from the demons walking the earth. I thought Dean knew he just had to because he loved Sam too much to let go, but he believes it is right? He and Sam were not the only ones who worked their asses off to close the gates of Hell, there were also innocent ones killed as collateral damage. I understand that he was desperate to talk Sam out of his sacrifice back then, but after some time he still could use "right" to describe what he did in the church... I think, maybe, his hunter self should know better? But maybe in defending himself he just let the word slip. I dunno.
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I get that people are feeling Dean's hurt, and Dean's inability to read Sam's rejection of being on the receiving or giving end of that particular destructive model of love as anything but a rejection of love. I get that there's a sense of extreme risk, because so much of Dean is tied up in that language he speaks. But. Sam just got translated into that language and it literally erased him. Sam CANNOT try to reach out to Dean by speaking that language, accepting those terms. That way madness lies. He has to take the risk of standing by other terms.
ETA: my metaphor may be a bit confused there.
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That was the point in reading reactions where my jaw went through the floorboards and ended up in the basement.
I think the person who commented on Monica's post about how Dean and Sam are operating on different definitions of love was spot-on. And I understand where the urge to yell at Sam to MAKE Dean understand are coming from. But I really don't think that's in Sam's power, or Dean's.
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