I've never has a problem with the introduction of any female character, and out of all the losses we've had throughout the show the one that hit me hardest and had me blubbering (beside Sam's in AHBL) was Jo's, but I think it's going to be a while before I am over losing Meg. I think they were really hitting their stride with her character and then they killed her off and for no real progression or strong reasoning. I'll admit I'm a bit put out that we lost her character, like you I'm not ranty over it just, sad I think.
I've always been open minded when new female characters are introduced. In fact, I was really excited about Amelia until I realised they forgot to actually give her a character.
Ellen and Jo's death had me blubbering like a baby! I'm glad they gave their deaths such significance though. Jo's return was particularly good also.
I was sad for Meg, especially as I can't exactly see why she had to die. At least they gave her a solid goodbye episode I suppose.
I loved the significance of Jo and Ellen's deaths, totally agree and I still can't watch that episode without bawling my eyes out and I loved her return and how accepting she was, she was a hunter, a warrior and she died a warrior's death with no regrets or recrimination and it was such beautiful scene with her and Dean on the return episode. Gah! it gets to me even talking about it. Damn you, show for always managing to hit me with the feels.
But yes, I am just sad for Meg and for myself as a viewer because I really loved her character.
I wasn't sure how I felt about Amelia, I think she was the one and only I wasn't sure about and I'll be honest and admit that I think a little of that was down to her part in Sam not looking for Dean and not because of her character. So yes, I am totally guilty of that and I'll put my hands up to it. But I soon got over that and like you say realised she had very little character to latch on to and appreciate.
she was a hunter, a warrior and she died a warrior's death with no regrets or recrimination
Yeah. They ended up creating a lovely character in Jo. And man, I remember when he first appeared. The uproar! ;)
I have lots of thoughts about Amelia, so I better not ramble here too much. But mostly I think she was a good idea, just poorly executed. I always think that if they created someone that we truly believed Sam had fallen in love with, we would have had a very powerful story. As it was, we (hee.., well me) spent most of the time trying to figure out if she was actually real.
I certainly didn't not like her because she was a love interest OR female. Mostly just a failed attempt to tell an important part of Sam's story.
Gee, lost my comment....and I was just saying I was sick of the angels and the page disappeared....spooky... angelic intervention :o
Sorry to hear Cas still around. Yeah, I know, sorry.
I'm not sure what I want from show, but sick to death of the Crowley/angel story line. I feel remarkably disloyal even thinking that, but a world full of grace-grown trees, which are then harvested for timber resulting in confused furniture...I mean, what the...?
And all those childless couples suddenly pregnant; oh, oh, oh, an world-wide outbreak of unplanned, and yes unexpected, births creates what? More harmony or more friction on earth. Give me a ghost, werewolf or vampire any day.
wow, hyjacked for bitch fest; sorry again.
Oh, and I blame you for making me like Sam, a little more each dream, umm day.
Oh honey...you crack me up! confused furniture...lol
My positive take going into S9 is that the angels getting their grace back etc will be the overall story arc but we'll MOSTLY get MoTW stories. I think Dean will be in for some big character arc stuff (I think he was short changed this season) and SamnDean are at least going into the next season on a positive footing (it seems).
and er...nod nod re the other stuff.
Good to hear from you!! I wondered if you were still watching...(silly for me to think not <333)
I must confess, the days of hassling dinner guest out of the house to get to Show have long since passed. Even forgot for a few days couple of times - horror!
My underlying discontent is I really want to see more action for Sam, showing us what a good hunter he is, physically and intellectually, not just telling...'cos he was damn hot in the church scenes. I think JP's physicality revealed his strength, his determination, his physical weariness, and his emotional exhaustion. I liked seeing that version of Sam. Gads, shutting up now!
I think the other side of this, which we have to wait and see about, is who gets resurrected and who doesn't. I think you're right that male and female characters die in about equal numbers, but it seems to me that the only ones who come back are male. Sam and Dean and Cas have all died any number of times; Bobby came back and went to Heaven in a very open-ended way; and as you say, Benny isn't dead dead. Jo and Mary had brief returns, it is true, but I think it was always clear they were only temporarily visiting as ghosts. It feels like once a woman dies, that's it, they're done, whereas when a man dies, you can never rule out seeing them again. (Unless I'm missing someone?)
Of course, I would be ecstatic if they decided to prove me wrong and bring back Meg and/or Naomi. :D
Yeah. I can't think of anyone who breaks that rule. I'm thinking that Sam and Dean (and now Cas) are special exceptions so they "have" to return when they die. Bobby was treated that way as well - but even there we can see the pattern. We only have male leads and regular male characters. It's probably the main reason why it feels so uneven.
It was suggested that Naomi might not be dead dead as we get a wing shot - but there have been other angel deaths without wing shots (Samandiriel).
Maybe we will be proven wrong and Meg and Naomi return. :)
They did get a bit more testosterone heavy than usual, didn't they?
I'm not entirely sure why Ms. Tran had to die off screen either, it seems strange. Crowley got to her maybe she'll show up as a demon again and boys can 'cure' her?
Now that I think of it, Bela could return as a demon as well.
I really hope they find a way for Abaddon to return to that vessel. Alaina Huffman did such a fabulous job with that character. Castiel's vessel has been wrecked more than once, Crowley's too I think. IDK.
Part of me hopes Amelia and Lisa don't make a return and they stay safe (and alive) in obscurity.
Randomly, I kind of want Amy and Benny to meet up in Purgatory and compare notes about their BFF's the Winchesters.
Good point! I'll go with that *clings to hope* I thought it was a ruse Crowley used to taunt Kevin until Kevin mentioned it, so... IDK. Kevin was possibly hallucinating at the time but I'd think he would've tried to contact her or something? Not just assume she's dead.
LOL - monsters support group for befriending the Winchesters. Someone should write that. :)
And BOY, would I love to see Amy and Benny swapping Winchester stories! That needs to be written.
Ha, I was scrolling and accidentally read this comment before the one you replied to. My brain immediately went to: so, Amelia is the vampire Dean met in Purgatory, and Benny is the vet that Sam shacked up with while Dean was dead? YES PLEASE THIS.
I usually don't keep tally of the male/female ratio of things, to be honest. First off, I prefer male protagonists and maaaaaaybe I find myself resenting 'pretty girls' a little more than I should.
The claims of misogyny lobbed at the writers of the show, I tend to shrug at and go "meh." A character is a character, be they male or female. I don't say to myself "Shit, why did another woman have to die?" I question "Why did they feel they had to kill that character? What point did it serve?" This, especially, with Meg.
Sometimes we, as a fandom, have only ourselves to blame. We have, in the past, wailed about any female character that dared come between us and the Winchesters. And now we're complaining that there aren't enough substantive female folks on the show?
Do we happen to know if the Gamble year produced more juicy female characters than seasons with male show-runners? (Sera will forever be my queen for producing Soulless Sam, just sayin'. :D)
Do we happen to know if the Gamble year produced more juicy female characters than seasons with male show-runners?
I wouldn't particularly say so. She's largely responsible for bringing Lisa back, though, I think? And the show didn't kill Lisa, or Meg, when she was in charge. Does Gwen count as a juicy female character? Sort of. She died before we got much of her. Jody was brought back and made awesome, though (and not killed). And of course, Charlie first appeared in S7, but she was written by Dabb (and/or Loflin) IIRC. We got to see Tessa again, and she didn't die either.
...Actually, now that I look at that paragraph, I'm gonna have to say maybe things were better under Gamble. We got strong reappearing female characters who didn't die, and the ones we already had (Meg, Lisa, Jody) got much more to do and more interesting stories than they had before. Plus, Charlie was obviously a big fan hit. All things considered, that's pretty good.
I do mourn the death of Gwen. There was a story left in her, for sure.
For a piece, there, I thought Charlie was getting just a tad too Mary Sue-ish, but Felicia Day is so charismatic in the role, I can't help but like her.
After perusing your list of cool, reappearing female characters, maybe SPN isn't as she-hating as the rumors indicate, huh?
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Ellen and Jo's death had me blubbering like a baby! I'm glad they gave their deaths such significance though. Jo's return was particularly good also.
I was sad for Meg, especially as I can't exactly see why she had to die. At least they gave her a solid goodbye episode I suppose.
xx
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But yes, I am just sad for Meg and for myself as a viewer because I really loved her character.
I wasn't sure how I felt about Amelia, I think she was the one and only I wasn't sure about and I'll be honest and admit that I think a little of that was down to her part in Sam not looking for Dean and not because of her character. So yes, I am totally guilty of that and I'll put my hands up to it. But I soon got over that and like you say realised she had very little character to latch on to and appreciate.
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Yeah. They ended up creating a lovely character in Jo. And man, I remember when he first appeared. The uproar! ;)
I have lots of thoughts about Amelia, so I better not ramble here too much. But mostly I think she was a good idea, just poorly executed. I always think that if they created someone that we truly believed Sam had fallen in love with, we would have had a very powerful story. As it was, we (hee.., well me) spent most of the time trying to figure out if she was actually real.
I certainly didn't not like her because she was a love interest OR female. Mostly just a failed attempt to tell an important part of Sam's story.
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Sorry to hear Cas still around. Yeah, I know, sorry.
I'm not sure what I want from show, but sick to death of the Crowley/angel story line. I feel remarkably disloyal even thinking that, but a world full of grace-grown trees, which are then harvested for timber resulting in confused furniture...I mean, what the...?
And all those childless couples suddenly pregnant; oh, oh, oh, an world-wide outbreak of unplanned, and yes unexpected, births creates what? More harmony or more friction on earth. Give me a ghost, werewolf or vampire any day.
wow, hyjacked for bitch fest; sorry again.
Oh, and I blame you for making me like Sam, a little more each dream, umm day.
Reply
My positive take going into S9 is that the angels getting their grace back etc will be the overall story arc but we'll MOSTLY get MoTW stories. I think Dean will be in for some big character arc stuff (I think he was short changed this season) and SamnDean are at least going into the next season on a positive footing (it seems).
and er...nod nod re the other stuff.
Good to hear from you!! I wondered if you were still watching...(silly for me to think not <333)
*hugs*
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My underlying discontent is I really want to see more action for Sam, showing us what a good hunter he is, physically and intellectually, not just telling...'cos he was damn hot in the church scenes. I think JP's physicality revealed his strength, his determination, his physical weariness, and his emotional exhaustion. I liked seeing that version of Sam. Gads, shutting up now!
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Of course, I would be ecstatic if they decided to prove me wrong and bring back Meg and/or Naomi. :D
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It was suggested that Naomi might not be dead dead as we get a wing shot - but there have been other angel deaths without wing shots (Samandiriel).
Maybe we will be proven wrong and Meg and Naomi return. :)
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I'm not entirely sure why Ms. Tran had to die off screen either, it seems strange. Crowley got to her maybe she'll show up as a demon again and boys can 'cure' her?
Now that I think of it, Bela could return as a demon as well.
I really hope they find a way for Abaddon to return to that vessel. Alaina Huffman did such a fabulous job with that character. Castiel's vessel has been wrecked more than once, Crowley's too I think. IDK.
Part of me hopes Amelia and Lisa don't make a return and they stay safe (and alive) in obscurity.
Randomly, I kind of want Amy and Benny to meet up in Purgatory and compare notes about their BFF's the Winchesters.
Reply
And BOY, would I love to see Amy and Benny swapping Winchester stories! That needs to be written.
Reply
I thought it was a ruse Crowley used to taunt Kevin until Kevin mentioned it, so... IDK. Kevin was possibly hallucinating at the time but I'd think he would've tried to contact her or something? Not just assume she's dead.
LOL - monsters support group for befriending the Winchesters. Someone should write that. :)
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Ha, I was scrolling and accidentally read this comment before the one you replied to. My brain immediately went to: so, Amelia is the vampire Dean met in Purgatory, and Benny is the vet that Sam shacked up with while Dean was dead? YES PLEASE THIS.
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The claims of misogyny lobbed at the writers of the show, I tend to shrug at and go "meh." A character is a character, be they male or female. I don't say to myself "Shit, why did another woman have to die?" I question "Why did they feel they had to kill that character? What point did it serve?" This, especially, with Meg.
Sometimes we, as a fandom, have only ourselves to blame. We have, in the past, wailed about any female character that dared come between us and the Winchesters. And now we're complaining that there aren't enough substantive female folks on the show?
Do we happen to know if the Gamble year produced more juicy female characters than seasons with male show-runners? (Sera will forever be my queen for producing Soulless Sam, just sayin'. :D)
Reply
I wouldn't particularly say so. She's largely responsible for bringing Lisa back, though, I think? And the show didn't kill Lisa, or Meg, when she was in charge. Does Gwen count as a juicy female character? Sort of. She died before we got much of her. Jody was brought back and made awesome, though (and not killed). And of course, Charlie first appeared in S7, but she was written by Dabb (and/or Loflin) IIRC. We got to see Tessa again, and she didn't die either.
...Actually, now that I look at that paragraph, I'm gonna have to say maybe things were better under Gamble. We got strong reappearing female characters who didn't die, and the ones we already had (Meg, Lisa, Jody) got much more to do and more interesting stories than they had before. Plus, Charlie was obviously a big fan hit. All things considered, that's pretty good.
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For a piece, there, I thought Charlie was getting just a tad too Mary Sue-ish, but Felicia Day is so charismatic in the role, I can't help but like her.
After perusing your list of cool, reappearing female characters, maybe SPN isn't as she-hating as the rumors indicate, huh?
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