7.02 Various thoughts on various bits...

[ash48]

Now that I've had a chance to digest that (and read all your thoughtful comments re 7.02- thank you <3) I have been pondering a few things...

Comments

[maenad]

How on earth do those hellucinations work? Sam's mind is creating them yeah? So he's putting those words into Luci's mouth. That is seriously screwed up. He is essentially torturing himself. He drove in a strange black van, thinking it was the impala and that he was a passenger. He hallucinated that and then changed the hallucination when he entered the building. It was as though he had realised that that wasn't Dean (about the same time we were).

See, I think hell is only part of the problem. It's the biggest, ugliest part, yes, but still only part. Sam's experience of reality has to be seriously fragmented right now - he's got a purely physical and a purely spiritual set of memories banging around in his head. And on top of that, the idea that this is too good to be true is a fairly logical one to hit on. He was supposed to be gone forever.

Office block-to-warehouse Dean-to-Lucifer is the best trick his mind can play on him. Reality isn't really going to melt away into hell, but this is pretty close - and he really does believe

[ash48]

As always, you present some very interesting points.

The hallucination thing is just so...messy. Screwed up messy. Thinking about the fact that he was supposed to be in hell forever is a great point. It really wouldn't take much for him to believe it's all make believe. Not real. His "hallucination" is, after all, making some damn good points.

The Adam/Michael point makes sense. I always imaged the angels separating themselves from their hosts but that doesn't have to be the case. Lucifer remained in Sam's body that whole time. They shared a body. Hmmm, maybe that's more the reference to "bunk buddy" and "spooning". They were that close. If Lu remained inside Sam's body then any physical hurt and pain would have been committed mentally not physically. Damn. That works for me. I hadn't thought of that before. So maybe... he wasn't abused in the pit in a sexual way (as some of the comments in the last 2 episodes have suggested) but maybe in a suggested (imagined) way only. Which would, no doubt, be just as bad

[maenad]

Oh, thank you. :)

If Lu remained inside Sam's body then any physical hurt and pain would have been committed mentally not physically. Damn. That works for me. I hadn't thought of that before. So maybe... he wasn't abused in the pit in a sexual way (as some of the comments in the last 2 episodes have suggested) but maybe in a suggested (imagined) way only. Which would, no doubt, be just as bad.Well, I think that's probably true both before and after Sam's body was pulled out. I mean - Castiel said his true body is the size of the Chrysler building, and Zachariah said he had 'six wings and four faces, one of which is a lion', and I can't imagine Lucifer being less large or less strange. Imagine trying to torture an ant - when you may not even have opposable thumbs. You might hurt it a bit - but you're probably just going to squash it ten minutes in. I think all Lucifer's tortures, from the straightforward yay-you're-on-fire stuff to the complex psychological stuff, were in Sam's mind. That was Dean's point - when you're in hell, it's

[ash48]

All this thinking makes so much sense. Love the ant analogy.

Re Adam. It's been suggested (below) that Adam's soul may actually be in heaven. When he original Adam died his soul went to heaven and when he was later pulled from the earth it was only his body, not his soul. So Adam 's soul may not be down there.

(though.. damnit.... Death did mention Dean had a choice between saving Sam or Adam. Hmmm.. I was really liking that thinking...)

xx

[debbiel66]

I was thinking about Sam's hallucinations...

So at least 1/2 of the time, he was without his body in the pit? Just his soul, right... so maybe part of his soul brought back hell with it. So maybe it's not just that he's hallucinating, but that he's still got some hell stuck inside.

(the things this show makes me write!)

As for Cas, I completely agree. He's got redemption still to come. :)

[ash48]

So maybe it's not just that he's hallucinating, but that he's still got some hell stuck inside.

*pounces* on this. That makes sense to me. It seems like Lu is actually really there. Now, I know that he probably isn't but if (somehow) part of hell is physically still with Sam then that could work. I'm struggling with Sam actually putting those words in Lu's mouth (of course it's possible) they are just too Lucifer like. (ah, yes... the stuff show is making me write../o\)

It would also mean that that part of hell could possibly be removed rather than Sam staying permanently "beautiful mind". *shrugs* no idea... With this show anything is possible. :)
xx

[harrigan]

Too many intriguing questions - not enough time to ponder! So I'll just throw my Adam theory at you...

Since it's clearly possible to pull a body from the afterlife and leave the soul behind, isn't it possible that Adam's soul is still in heaven, and when Zachariah yanked him out, he just got the body? In which case, yeah, Adam's body fell in the pit, possessed by Michael, but his soul is still in heaven from when the ghouls killed him originally?

[ash48]

Oh wow... I have never considered that. I love it. That works for me SO well. That will be my fanon now. I hate thinking of Adam still suffering in the pit....

\o/

[el1ie]

This - I've definitely thought this was possible, all they need was a vessel, not sure how consent works without a soul, but angels are dicks so I don't suppose it mattered to them. I know Death asked Dean which brother he wanted saving, but I always though that was just Death messing with Dean.

[ash48]

I was just this minute thinking about that choice Death gave Dean, thinking it meant that Adam's soul was still down there.

I'm sure Show hasn't given this as much thought as we have. I'd love them to have thought to have Adam's soul in heaven.

But yeah... Death could have just been messing with Dean.

[ash48]

Ooh yes. Good point. As one big group they are much more dangerous. But they have been dispersed so individually they are not so strong. Though, they seem pretty capable of killing even by themselves. We can only imagine the damage if they all come together. Which is probably what they are trying to do.

And yes about the book. The boys don't have the usual books to rely on now, so finding out how to kill these things might not be as straight forward.
Thanks honey.

[el1ie]

Oop, butting in everywhere today, but -

[bythedamned]

heyo, jumping in for round two of thinky thoughts. i heartily second #2 and 3. I had the same thought about the book, then dismissed it cuz Dean would never do that to anything important and/or useful. as for #3...a) yeah, I think Sam's totally doing that to himself. I had this very eery thought of, what if seeing through the cracks actually means seeing *through*, to hell, and this is all the devil can do? but, naw, i think it really is sam. his face when he said 'I thought I was with you, Dean' just about broke me. and b) i mostly just want them to mention adam for continuity's sake, but I can definitely see both angels going 'this one's mine, get your own'. (or maybe even Michael being fine with Lucifer driving his own vessel nuts?) but, yeah, so. Show just did that. with the spooning and the noncon. not that this isn't plenty blatant, but I wonder if they'll ever come out and say it. hrmm. ::thinks:: that could totally throw a curve into your sam's post-hell sexuality postulations

[ash48]

that could totally throw a curve into your sam's post-hell sexuality postulations :/

Wouldn't that be really interesting?! I thought the "you're my bitch" comment might be as blatant as we get. But if they actually follow this up with Sam having issues sexually that would be incredible. Oh Sammy.... the sex meta would definitely take a different turn.

7) I'm thinking the girl and the two guys count as levia!deaths. Then there's the woman in the hospital. Mills as a survivor? Plus the swim team... I have to sit and do some counting but I think I'll count those.

Oh YES! The episode totally rocked! Show is indeed taking good care of us. I'd say it's mostly the Cas fans who maybe aren't too happy. I think the SamnDean fans were in heaven! :D

[bythedamned]

agreed, Mills as a survivor, one more death, the first dr. that the little girl killed before she shifted into him.

i get a kick out of speculating the long term goals of the writers, how far the vision goes, etc. and i wonder if the sexuallyscarred!sam could be a premeditated move. not just the ultimate hurt, but even more of an excuse to keep the brothers together. not that dean's pushed sam to go get laid in a few seasons, but it's an excellent reason for the boys not to go looking for women to settle down with, if sam just... can't. and dean will never leave his brother if he knows he'll be alone. all (canon) roads lead to sam'n'dean, or whatnot.

[ash48]

Yes yes ... I love that. And I reckon Dean is nearly not as flirtly as he used to be. And after Lisa I think even he may back even more.

(no damn wonder wincest is easy to believe...*g*)

Which reminds me...... I need to tackle that Dean & sex meta.

(My working title is: Dean, Sex and What Lies Beneath)