I have been thinking about animal research ever since school was over, and I wanted to know what you all felt about it (You know, the three of you that read this thing? lol
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You say that primates shouldn't be used because they're social. Rats are actually extremely social. If separated, they can sometimes experience extreme stress. They may stop eating and drinking, lose their fur, chew at their own bodies, etc. Not always, of course, are the reactions so extreme.
Actually, I think one reason people use rats in labs is because of the views people have of them as nasty creatures. I had a rat (Yes, one. :/ I spent a lot of time with him to make up for lack of ratty friends. Though I doubt it was completely adequate, it's better than they get in a lab) and I can say that they are wonderful animals. The domestic rats (which is what labs use) are sweet, cleanly (they spend most of their waking time cleaning themselves), social, playful little animals. It's rare to get a rat that bites. I've heard them described as tiny dogs, and the description is apt.
Anyway, I could go on about rats forever. XD I loved my little boy very much. I haven't answered your question, but I thought I'd throw that babble out there.
Hey! Well, thanks for your reply, that's the kind of input I was hoping for. :)
I had a friend who had mice, and was able to discern distinct personalities with them. When two died the other acted like nothing had happend :/ Fickle thing... anyhow the mortality rate for rodents is very high when you think about all the animals that are going after them for food. After my cat mauled a chipmunk to death, I had to admit being fairly well cared for in a lab has gotta be less painfull than dying slowly and painfully out in peaceful mother nature lol.
What is/was you rats name? :D I personally have a thing about chickens XD
Er, wild rats and fancy (domestic) rats are extremely different. So they wouldn't be dying slowly and painfully in the wild. Or at least they -shouldn't-. People don't realize that they shouldn't let domestic rats go into the wild. There's a high probability that the rat would end up dying of starvation, lack of proper nutrients, or enemy attacks if left in the wild. They just wouldn't really know how to provide for and protect themselves correctly
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I heard of one lab that rescued domestic rats that people had bought as pets and just dumped on animal shelters...they were trying to educate people that you shouldn't release them into nearby woods or whatever...I'm sure that message doen't reach every dumb-dumb though :(
Hmm. I think that there aren't a lot of options in some cases for certain research. But I also believe that karma comes back to bite one in the ass. If a scientist (in my belief) causes suffering to another living being in any capacity, that scientist will find it coming back to bite him. Same goes for people who kill others for any reason. It's the causing suffering component that matters to me in that worldview. So the person who does that needs to know that they in fact won't actually "get away" with it. Karma grinds slowly and exceedingly fine.
BTW, I don't believe anybody who has ever lived has been able to keep from causing suffering to something or other on their life's journey. It's simply impossible. Doesn't mean a person should not try. I don't know how that explains the Buddha though. What makes me ill and angry and griefstricken are those creeps in that chicken factory who were kicking the injured chickens around and stomping on them...god that made me ill. I shouldn't hate but I hated them.
Anyhow...yes Suffering can be caused inadvertently, but causing harm knowingly is wrong...And though Karma will get the suckers, It's a really gray area, you are causing harm to an animal by testing a product on it...but you are also causing harm to a sick individual by not working to develop a drug or treatment that may help them... These are hard problems, with no quick solutions...
I like to think the APA can prevent unnecessary harm to lab animals before it occurs...it would be really nice if such concerned agencies could do the same for chicken plants..but that may take a while to set up :( I love chickens... I love painting their portraits....
That's a good point about one suffering balancing or not balancing another...it's not simple at all. The other thing along those lines: is, say, causing suffering to a primate more cosmically significant than causing suffering to an oyster? Does the suffering just involve pain and discomfort? Yeah, there are a lot of things that aren't resolved for me either. I still think though, Dante notwithstanding, that the lowest level of hell is reserved for those that deliberately and with sadistic intent (or even neutral intent) cause suffering to another being, pain and so forth. Yes the Nazis come to mind. So do kids who set cats on fire and shoot dogs with bows and arrows and I could go on but I won't. It's extremely disturbing to me. The worst part in anything like that is that the person who is causing the pain or killing or whatever doesn't have any sort of basic fellow-feeling towards their victim. It's very very psychopathic to me and the most disturbing thing is it seems like many of us are capable of it to some extent, even if we
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Exactly...se to me the pain and suffering is lasting far longer in the sick human, than in the lab rat..but, it's still very complicated as you say...
Hannah Arendt sounds interesting, form both a psychological as well as humanitarian aspect. I will certainly look into her work.
And you're right, someone who has never murdered anyone but spends all their life treating thier family very badly is just as, if not more cruel than the murderer. I think one reason why we are so capable of the small cruelties that add up (the ones we are not always aware of) is that we are all very taken up with ourselves..this is not always a bad thing, and is actually in most cases a form of survival...but we become too used to being self-absorbed..and many take it up to extreme levels, such as hurting an animal for fun...because it makes us feel stronger when we feel weak (or in some cases) simply because watching something in pain is *gags* fun. Another interesting thing is how evil can breed evil... I truly admire the people who have undergone
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Actually, I think one reason people use rats in labs is because of the views people have of them as nasty creatures. I had a rat (Yes, one. :/ I spent a lot of time with him to make up for lack of ratty friends. Though I doubt it was completely adequate, it's better than they get in a lab) and I can say that they are wonderful animals. The domestic rats (which is what labs use) are sweet, cleanly (they spend most of their waking time cleaning themselves), social, playful little animals. It's rare to get a rat that bites. I've heard them described as tiny dogs, and the description is apt.
Anyway, I could go on about rats forever. XD I loved my little boy very much. I haven't answered your question, but I thought I'd throw that babble out there.
Reply
I had a friend who had mice, and was able to discern distinct personalities with them. When two died the other acted like nothing had happend :/ Fickle thing... anyhow the mortality rate for rodents is very high when you think about all the animals that are going after them for food. After my cat mauled a chipmunk to death, I had to admit being fairly well cared for in a lab has gotta be less painfull than dying slowly and painfully out in peaceful mother nature lol.
What is/was you rats name? :D I personally have a thing about chickens XD
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BTW, I don't believe anybody who has ever lived has been able to keep from causing suffering to something or other on their life's journey. It's simply impossible. Doesn't mean a person should not try. I don't know how that explains the Buddha though. What makes me ill and angry and griefstricken are those creeps in that chicken factory who were kicking the injured chickens around and stomping on them...god that made me ill. I shouldn't hate but I hated them.
Reply
Anyhow...yes Suffering can be caused inadvertently, but causing harm knowingly is wrong...And though Karma will get the suckers, It's a really gray area, you are causing harm to an animal by testing a product on it...but you are also causing harm to a sick individual by not working to develop a drug or treatment that may help them... These are hard problems, with no quick solutions...
I like to think the APA can prevent unnecessary harm to lab animals before it occurs...it would be really nice if such concerned agencies could do the same for chicken plants..but that may take a while to set up :( I love chickens... I love painting their portraits....
Reply
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Hannah Arendt sounds interesting, form both a psychological as well as humanitarian aspect. I will certainly look into her work.
And you're right, someone who has never murdered anyone but spends all their life treating thier family very badly is just as, if not more cruel than the murderer. I think one reason why we are so capable of the small cruelties that add up (the ones we are not always aware of) is that we are all very taken up with ourselves..this is not always a bad thing, and is actually in most cases a form of survival...but we become too used to being self-absorbed..and many take it up to extreme levels, such as hurting an animal for fun...because it makes us feel stronger when we feel weak (or in some cases) simply because watching something in pain is *gags* fun. Another interesting thing is how evil can breed evil... I truly admire the people who have undergone ( ... )
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