Comments | arabian: Unpopular Opinion Alert: Donna in 'Journey's End' = Perfect

arabian

Unpopular Opinion Alert: Donna in 'Journey's End' = Perfect

Jul 12, 2008 11:46

I'm putting any and all thoughts behind the cut even though it's been a week, because it was a week ago on BBC one, but it will be a bit of time before it airs on the Sci-Fi network. (How anyone can wait that long is beyond me, but there ya go ...)

( Donna in 'Journey's End' (spoilers obviously) ... )

doctor who, donna noble, tv

Comments 29

chalcidice July 12 2008, 16:20:16 UTC

How you can take such a horrible ending of the series, in my opinion, and string it into something more deep and complex is beyond me. I am truly amazed. I don't know if you have swayed my dislike for the ending of this series of Who. But it does give another perspective on the entire matter ( ... )

arabian July 12 2008, 18:33:06 UTC

I think I can see this so clearly because it comes from personal experience a bit. I had a complicated relationship with my mother, similar to the surface of what we saw with Donna and Sylvia, and so I know how much it means when your mom believes in you. And that's all Donna needs ( ... )

wendymr July 16 2008, 23:22:47 UTC

I had a complicated relationship with my mother, similar to the surface of what we saw with Donna and Sylvia, and so I know how much it means when your mom believes in you.So did I - and that's why I disagree with you entirely over the likelihood of Donna ever getting that reassurance from her mother. Emotionally abusive people - which is what Sylvia is - do not change their behaviour. Think about that scene. Yes, Sylvia defended Donna, but then she would. The Doctor is an outsider. She can criticise her daughter all she wants, but anyone outside the family can't. It's not their place. It's none of their damned business ( ... )

arabian July 16 2008, 23:58:58 UTC

As I wrote in response below, the reason I think it WILL be different this time is because Sylvia had proof that Donna WAS this amazing, brilliant person. And I don't agree that Sylvia is emotionally abusive; I know she's hard on Donna, but it always came across more to me as disappointment that Donna never achieved anything which to me read more a thought based on that Donna HADN'T achieved anything. She was a temp, and then when PiC came around, she was essentially living off her mother (and had been since the Doctor left) seemingly unable to get a job.

Sylvia didn't know that Donna was trying to find the Doctor, she just knew that Donna had spent a year "trying to find a job" and was still failing miserably. Sylvia just needed to KNOW that Donna had it in her, which DONNA hadn't shown her at this point. Now that Sylvia DOES know it, she will push Donna the right way.

Thread 7

afrocurl July 12 2008, 16:41:20 UTC

Much as I'd love to believe that Donna can be better with Sylvia and Wilf's help (new wiped mind and all), I don't think Sylvia will change that much. She'll still be the overbearing mother who nags and offers no positive encouragement.

Given that Donna had that positive encouragement with the Doctor, it's still sad and pitiful.

I'm fairly determined to ask RTD about it at Comic-Con (and well, warn everyone in the room I want to talk about the finale since it won't have even started to air by the time the panel takes place.)

arabian July 12 2008, 18:35:24 UTC

I guess for me, if I can see a happy outcome, one that is plausible when it's likely we won't get a canon answer, I go with the happy outcome. I just think that it was too deliberate for Sylvia to show a slight softening in "Turn Left," then defend Donna -- not getting what Wilf was saying, just automatically defending Donna -- when Wilf said she was better with the Doctor. And then having it flat-out told to her "tell her that some time then." It was just too deliberate. We saw a Donna blossom under the Doctor's encouragement. And then in a separate timeline, we saw Donna blossom and become closer to our Donna under Rose's encouragement. And considering all that Donna did -- and that Sylvia now knows, the Doctor's comment was the wake-up call. Donna CAN be and WAS so much more, and now that Sylvia knows completely that her daughter has that potential in her, instead of batting her down, she will lift her up.

Given that Donna had that positive encouragement with the Doctor, it's still sad and pitiful.But as shown in the ( ... )

wendymr July 16 2008, 23:27:52 UTC

I just think that it was too deliberate for Sylvia to show a slight softening in "Turn Left

When did Sylvia soften in Turn Left? What sticks out for me is that horrible, horrible scene where Donna says she was always a disappointment to her mum, and Sylvia agrees. Cruel, emotionally abusive and so painful to watch.

I can't believe that a woman like Sylvia - who is a type I've seen several times - will ever change her behaviour. In her world-view, she's doing nothing wrong. The problem is all with other people, and she will not alter in that perception - people like that just don't.

arabian July 17 2008, 00:05:59 UTC

Maybe I'm remembering the scene wrong, but there was a moment in the room where they're in bed and Donna says something about going out and getting a job, she will ... and Sylvia doesn't berate her. It was a small scene, but I was expecting another salvo thrown at her, and it didn't happen ( ... )

Thread 6

myth_moondancer July 16 2008, 14:27:52 UTC

I agree with almost everything you said in this post - I think Donna's exit was (painfully) perfect for that character, and I particularly loved the way the series had been building up to this kind of ending for some time. Very cleverly done by the writers, I thought ( ... )

arabian July 16 2008, 18:03:56 UTC

I see where you're getting at with Sylvia returning to form, but for me I think it will be different and lasting this time is because now Sylvia KNOWS, indubitably, that Donna IS capable of greatness. She didn't think so before. Now? She knows just how brilliant Donna can be. And THAT'S why I think she'll keep pushing her the right way this time and not revert to form.

I knew nothing of Tate other than what she looked like from a few bad promo pics and I was 'eh, I don't think so.' I can't imagine what people thought based on her previous known stuff, but dang, did she prove every doubter wrong. AWESOMENESS personified.

Thanks for replying. :)

myth_moondancer July 17 2008, 19:33:30 UTC

Really hope you're proved right on the Sylvia front. I hate waiting around for characters to bugger things up constantly, though I suppose angst provides better viewing figures for the writers :P

And I loved 'The Catherine Tate Show' before she got the role in 'Dr Who', so I did know of her, although TBH that didn't exactly provide much detail about what she would be like in 'DW' (other than I knew she could play a wide range of characters with accuracy...) I think she's certainly proved herself now, though...

arabian July 18 2008, 02:23:33 UTC

Well, I don't know that we'll ever get follow-through, but I'm still hoping for some sign, something that shows that Donna did become awesome and the Doctor finds out. Somehow. If we don't get follow-through, I'll just assume my happy ending for Donna happened.

I'm also tempted to find some of her show just because I love her so very, very, very much on Who. Astounding, this woman is.

Thread 5

aimeekitty July 21 2008, 06:43:06 UTC

I think you have a really great point there!
even with out it though, I think they've shown such strength in Donna that I have hope for her reaching some sort of potential on her own. I loved how the built up the tragedy of it, it was beautifully sad for both Donna and the Doctor. But I'm with you, I think, in time, she'll become awesome Donna, on her own, of her own account.
isn't that part of the message of the series? that simple human beings have such wonderful potential. I think Donna was one of the best examples of that in the show, even m ore so than Rose (who was just a shopgirl!).
while the show keeps kicking the doctor when he's down (which is wonderfully angsty) it still has such a beautiful core of hope, hope in humanity, really.

arabian July 21 2008, 12:46:49 UTC

even with out it though, I think they've shown such strength in Donna that I have hope for her reaching some sort of potential on her own.

I like to believe so as well. I really think the entire point of "Turn Left" was to show that Donna DID have that potential to be that awesome even without the Doctor, she just needed someone to truly believe in her. And I think the Doctor's line to Sylvia was the key to point out that now Sylvia GETS IT!

while the show keeps kicking the doctor when he's down (which is wonderfully angsty) it still has such a beautiful core of hope, hope in humanity, really.

Agreed; we identify and love the Doctor so much, but after all, he IS an alien. The humans are the ones who are MADE better because of him.

fey_spirit August 1 2008, 17:33:30 UTC

And in turn the Doctor is made better by them... it's a wonderful little cycle they've got going there.

fey_spirit August 1 2008, 17:32:32 UTC

You know I love this idea! Donna finds her way back to fabulous on her own, and then runs into the Doctor again on her own terms...

Doctor Who who? bellavaruka July 23 2008, 23:40:02 UTC

OKay, I gotta ask. I've never seen Doctor Who. Any of it. I hear about it constanly through my flist, however. What is it, why is it "all that" and if I wanted to get into it, where oh where would I start since it has so many beginnings/doctors/etc.?

Re: Doctor Who who? arabian July 23 2008, 23:54:23 UTC

I would suggest starting with New Who. The first season (13 episodes)started in 2005 has Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor, the 2nd series to current has David Tennant as the Doctor ( ... )

Re: Doctor Who who? fey_spirit August 1 2008, 17:35:06 UTC

Do we know for sure whether he has 2 or 3 left now? Did the last regen count even though he kept his own body and personality?

Re: Doctor Who who? arabian August 2 2008, 02:58:03 UTC

Well, that's a loaded question. Technically, he didn't use a regeneration -- that's what I got from the Doctor-explanation and the DWC (although, David Tennant doesn't seem to be sure, it seemed like the others involved do). However, I've also heard that the BBC is keeping it somewhat vague that because he's the last Time Lord that should somehow enable him to have more than the standard 13 regenerations.

So, in other words, who knows? I guess it depends on how long the show lasts.