Weaponry related question for dinosaurs. Yes that's correct.

[raptarrin]

So I have been working on this prehistoric fantasy for a few years now, assuming all this time that carnosaurs and bipedal herbivores such as iguanodon had a similar range of motion to humans, and therefore would have no problem swinging massive clubs, stabbing with spears, and even using a sort of modified bow and arrow that a deinonychus could

Comments

[raptarrin]

Well obviously they didn't have the brain function - that is why it is called a fantasy. But physiologically I think I can create something moderately believable that they could grasp if they DID have the brain function. I don't really want to create some sort of super-race of dinosaurs - I kind of like the limitations (except the small brains) that the existing ones had. And regardless - if I wanted people to tell me why my book is a bad idea, I wouldn't have posted my questions on a fine forum such as this one.

[raptarrin]

I do want healthy criticism - but telling me to scrap the whole thing isn't particularly helpful. And I think it would require MORE suspension of belief to think there's a world somewhere where all the dinosaurs have thumbs and can do complex equations. And as for picking the spear off the ground, I think that they could use their feet or mouths - they used their mouths to pick stuff up off the ground all the time.

[brezhnev]

You could propose that there was no killer asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs. In that case, that would allow them to evolve a little further. Then, they developed the articulation needed to grasp weapons (and build them, for that matter), along with sufficent brain power.

Just an idea?

[darth_gojira]

It's not the brain, it's the shape of the hand. The reason primates have weapons is that they have opposable thumbs. Smaller ornithopods like Hypsilophodon have flexible fingers,and iguanodonts and hadrosaurs had grasping "pinkies" (their main fingers formed padded "hooves"), but their manipulation was limited to moving branches to their mouths. They probably couldn't handle anything like a spear.

Theropods had the problem of having claws. Some of the smaller theropods like ornithomimmids probably could have some dexterity, and probably more than most dinosaurs, but even that was limited.

So, my tip would be to use smaller dinosaurs in this case, since the larger ones evolved their limbs for support rather than manipulation

(I work in the dinosaur section of AllExperts, BTW :))

[darth_gojira]

Or, you could just modify their anatomy and "break" their fingers :)

This is why if I ever do a prehistoric fantasy, proboscideans and primates will be the sentients :)

[darth_gojira]

Interesting. So the general consensus is no spears would be better. I was really intrigued by the idea of them using spears, but I will consider your thoughts. The book IS very extensively researched, but it is definitely not 100% true to science, so even without the spears, I doubt any hard core scientists will be a fan.

If you (or anyone else) are very knowledgable about paleontology, maybe you can answer these questions:

1. If a carnosaur broke a hand claw, would it cause the kind of pain that radiates down the arm, or would it maybe not hurt that bad?

2. How long after mating would an iguanodon lay her eggs?

[darth_gojira]

1. It depends on the breakage. If it's just the sheath of the claw, it would hurt as much as when the enamel breaks on your teeth. It's painful, but not excruciating. If the bone itself breaks, just imagine somebody dropping an anvil on the tips of your fingers. The good news is that the claws had no nerve endings. The bad news is that gangrene could set in and kill you.

2.Probably a year or so. It's hard to tell. They were larger than mammals, but their eggs don't consume as much energy as a fetus.

[cael_lilikoi]

I don't have specific advice for this, but just to say, be sure to check out how James Gurney has dealt with these physical limitations. (Although you probably already have, of course.)
His world building tends to be more focused on living accommodations and equipment rather than anything hand held, however.

Perhaps you are thinking of this too much from a human perspective, trying to accommodate a human object to make it work for a non-human animal, rather than starting from scratch. Consider what they CAN do and create a brand new weapon/extension for what they already have rather than trying to figure out how to make them use something which is designed around opposable thumbs and extensive arm movements and whatnot. What are the strengths of specific species and go from there.

Like, how do these various species usually fight/defend themselves? Start with that as a base and perhaps add external weapons that build upon the use of their own natural weapons and battle strategies.

[dinogrrl]

Agreed. Why not, for example, have large sauropods wear some sort of weaponry on their tails? Those tails were like whips, adding a club (as Shunosaurus did!) or blades would make them deadly indeed.

Iguanodonts could wear spurs on their hands, similar to the way fighting cocks wear spurs on their legs.

If you have small mammals working with dinosaurs (as the ceratopsian slingshot idea), why not have them work with other dinosaurs? For example, stegosaurs would offer multiple slingshot platforms--you could have one at every pair of plates/spines! Just make sure the mammals aim over the guy in front of them and not directly forward or you'll have some collateral damage going on XD.

I could definitely see oviraptorosaurids wearing some sort of spike on their heads (for the crestless varieties), or a metal sheath over their beaks to make them sharper. I have no doubt they could peck you to death :p.

[raptarrin]

Those are some good ideas, especially for the iguanodons. I was going to have them use clubs, but specialized hand gear is just so much cooler.

[dinogrrl]

You definitely have to take into consideration the coolness factor, that's for sure :p.

[maxismerlin]

Here's my question... why would dinosaurs need weapons? They've already got their claws and fangs. The reason humans use weapons is because we don't.

[darth_gojira]

Couldn't hurt. Elephants in India have been equipped with swords on their fragile tusks and trained to fight with a sword tied on their trunk.

As if ordinary elephants aren't scary enough

http://chalklands.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/elephanttuskswords.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBPtIyfd1No&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHtMrT9Vgw&

[darth_gojira]

Good point. It was primate arboreal (brains, manipulative fingers, stereoscopic vision) adaptations that allowed for humans to develop technology. The elephants, very intelligent, were still not intelligent to develop anything but makeshift tools because of their environmental condition

[db_silverdragon]

I have sentient dinosaurs in a fantasy world I've been working on. Initially I had them copying the local humans' technology.

Then I realised that these creatures were sentient raptors. Now they haven't bothered to make tools and weapons because they've already evolved them all.