On Hume & Intelligent Design

[annwfyn]

As some of you may know, pierot is currently doing a theology degree, and as such there tend to be theology text books around the house, and I've been periodically reading them. And they are really interesting

Comments

Hume mentions...

[wraithwitch]

...Insane infant deities?
Damnit, missed that.

Re: Hume mentions...

[annwfyn]

I may be paraphrasing a little. He argues that even if the complexity of the universe proves that there is a god, there is no proof offered that that god is a Judeo-Christian deity and could, instead, by any one of a number of other options. And then he gives some of the other options which, actually, are almost all more interesting than the standard Judeo-Christian god.

Tis in Dialogues somewhere, if you're feeling like poking through it all.

Re: Hume mentions...

[wraithwitch]

And there I was thinking I'd missed Hume mentioning some kinda proto-HPLovecraft-Azathoth =P

If I stay at the Oast any longer I shall look it up as that volume is certainly on the shelves...

Re: Hume mentions...

[annwfyn]

He might have done. But I think I missed that bit. He did talk about deities creating the world and then getting bored and buggering off (my reading of Hume is a mix of skim reading, dipping in and out, and reading analyses of his work by other people, so I'm being a bit sketchy here!)

If he did pre-figure Cthulhu by over 100 years I will definitely build a small creepy shrine to him.

[cairmen]

Thing is, Intelligent Design feeds into some very unpleasant modern-day politics.

In addition, it's possible to admire beautiful writing and description whilst still finding the argumentation contained within badly lacking.

There are a number of movements and belief systems throughout history which had awesome, genuinely remarkable aesthetics connected to belief systems and philosophies for which "it's all crap" is far too mild a description.

[annwfyn]

But I do find it...I don't know...irritating when an exceedingly intelligent, complex and well thought through argument is dismissed with 'it's crap'. This is partly because 'it's crap' isn't actually an argument. It doesn't persuade anyone. It doesn't offer a counterpart. It just says 'I'm refusing to listen' and also absolutely limits you to talking only to people who already share your particular value system

[cairmen]

"It's crap" could mean several things, of course. It could mean "I don't want to debate this, I just want to believe you're wrong", but it could also mean "this argument does not survive attack from a number of well-known counterarguments I'm already familiar with and feel no need to rehash here."

ID arguments tend to fail on a number of reasonably well-known counterarguments. If the arguments you're quoting fail on the same counterarguments, no matter how beautifully they're put, it's hard to argue that they have value as arguments, although as you say, they may have value on other grounds, such as being beautiful examples of rhetoric, or having good points to make beyond their flawed central thesis

[annwfyn]

You are aware that the far right are still remarkably active in Europe and the UK at the moment and the philosophy of Nazism is not an ancient relic? Right?

I think, perhaps, we're coming at this from different perspectives. You are assuming that anyone discussing teleological theory is trying to convert you.

You're not trying to persuade/influence anyone who is either already someone who believes in Intelligent Design or is uncertain/undecided, and you're not debating philosophy or the history of philosophy, and if that is the case, I can see why 'it's all bollocks' would seem like a better response, as it's shutting down communication immediately.

[kiffkin]

There's a quote by the Dalai Lama (I'll see if I can dig it out) where he's talking about art. He says that it isn't aesthetics that makes something beautiful, but instead it's the effect it has on people that defines whether or not a thing has beauty. Appearance is basically irrelevant.

[annwfyn]

I would be interested to read that.

[kiffkin]

Trying to find it now, but I have a feeling I may have read it in a library book. I've found a picture of the piece (it's this statue) he's talking about along with a summary of what he said, but I can't find the actual quote yet. From what I remember, he's asked what he thinks is the most beautiful work of art (or maybe the most beautiful statue?) and he describes this one, even though he's never seen it, as it's inspired so many people.

[kiffkin]

And five minutes later I find it. Gimme a mo.

[taimatsu]

I had no idea he was doing theology. You know I used to study theology, right? I should ask him what sorts of things he's working on...

[annwfyn]

I did remember! Right now he's writing one essay which is a critical analysis of Design Theory (which is the one I'm really interested in) and another on something complicated to do with Islam which I am not really following, and he's doing a chunk of stuff on the afterlife.