I always find these posts of yours a cogent discussion of a topic. I really appreciate the thought you have put into it and the time you've taken not only to cogitate but to write it out in a sensible way.
I'm going to ruminate on it a bit and hope to come back and comment further.
I do have one question now, though. Can't remember if you are a dark!fic reader, or not, but in my early fandom days there was a gal named Celeste who wrote it. One of them involved Jack having been held captive for a long time, and the only way he could be released back to earth was for Sam to take over his "care and discipline", which involved her basically torturing him at times. Not sure why this particular fic and only this one came to mind as I read your piece, but it did.
Well, thanks! I'm always very glad if I can manage to make myself remotely understandable. Lol.
As far as what you are describing, which I think sounds like the kink of Sam as dominant (sexually, physically), can still coexist with gendered power imbalance. It's not just about doms and subs in a sexual sense, but a bit subtler, in daily interactions rather than just extreme situations. (Plus, the valid issue of if we are meant to find Sam torturing Jack 'romantic'. Or is it just a kink?) Not sure I am making sense. I can't comment on the story itself, but this is my vague impression on so little information. (And honestly, I'd rather not pick a part specific fics, no matter how elucidating it might be.)
Basically that I have noticed a large amount of Sam/Jack fic that seems to feature an alpha male version of Jack.Oh gosh, YES. Either I am more mature and aware of it now, but I seemed to recall the older stuff being more balanced and a LOT of the newer stuff (things written since oh lets say when I returned to reading fic in 06?) being all about Jack as Alpha Male
( ... )
I think with me I have simply become a more careful reader. When I go back to older fic that I read when I first came to fandom, a lot of it I have more problems with now than I did at the time.
And, gosh. Slash. I think I could agree that a lot of women might find slash appealing because there is that inherent equality. But at the same time, slash relationships still have power imbalances (just not gendered ones), and have just as much stereotyped behavior as het as a genre. I'm certainly no expert on slash, but I might wonder if one of the draws of slash is as a way to have romantic power imbalances without having to justify gender inequality. A few readers/writers might use it just to avoid the question. But, of course, we are still talking about a partial contingent within the whole, just as we are in Sam/Jack fic. Hmmm. I'm sure there is probably meta within the slash community on these topics that would be much more elucidating than my half-formed wonderings.
Trust me, this does get to your subjectkatcorviDecember 5 2009, 00:47:01 UTC
Today I spent an hour on amazon trying to find suitable books to send to my 14 year old, horse crazy niece who had major surgery yesterday and will be stuck in her bed for at least a week, then stuck in the house for six, and don't even think about getting on a horse again for a few months. WOE
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Re: Trust me, this does get to your subjectlyssieDecember 5 2009, 03:48:41 UTC
er. Which of the Lackey series was that one? While she does deal with traumatic things, her views on sexuality are a lot less restrictive than some and most of her stuff is utter mind-candy.
In the Talia books, Talia is tortured in the third book and it is very much NOT glossed over. She's damaged, and it takes time to heal (that said, the healing isn't really dealt with in detail, but the books aren't about 'here's how rape victims survive trauma').
To be fair, though, Lackey likes her real-world trauma (the SERRAted Edge books are all about elves and abused kids), and not a series goes by without some major character being massively tortured/raped/abused.
Other good stuff for her is the Enchanted Forest series, btw. Cimorene is AWESOMESAUCE.
Re: Trust me, this does get to your subjectkatcorviDecember 5 2009, 04:15:52 UTC
I spent so much time surfing around looking at so many books that I'm not sure if it was this series or not. I even read a few of her books, but it was so long ago that I couldn't remember anything more than telepathic horses. It might well have been as I think the heroine was named Talia, but that was about 12 hours ago and my brain just didn't retain enough. Too bad you didn't write a review at amazon as that's additional info that I didn't have and is good to know. Sounds as though the books would be good for my niece, but maybe when she's a few years older. I don't want to get in trouble with her momma, who although fairly liberal, this is still her sweet, innocent baby girl.
Argh. Yes, yes, and yes. I do like those romantic stereotypes sometimes - I think that's partly what draws me to (my idea of) Sam/Jack. But at a certain point, it tips past being romantic, and becomes... I don't know, abusive, perhaps? Or unbalanced, anyhow. I can't pin down exactly where goes past the point of acceptability for me, either
( ... )
At the time, I couldn't see past the idea that Mulder+Scully+sex = romance.
Yes, exactly. I know some people would say romance is for escape and they are darn tired of people like me trying to 'politicize' their pleasure reading, but the fact that a lot of us feel the need to create a power imbalance between the couple in order to relate, to feel entertained, and call it 'romance' just disturbs me. There is that fine line between reading a fic and thinking, 'well, this could be any two people', and reading fic that is recognizably Sam and Jack, yet still has been skewed (in my opinion) to fit the stereotypical 'romance' equation. (Which I have heard there actually is one, in the printed romance genre. X sex + X misunderstandings + X rescues of damsel = good book. Lol)
This is another one of those topics that make my brain run at thousand miles per hour and but never finds a destination. I mean, there's no way I could ever intelligently articulate the thoughts. So, at the risk of babbling incoherently
( ... )
And I always wondered why in this fandom it's Sam/Jack, as opposed to Jack/Sam? I haven't run across any other pairings where the woman is listed first.
I have always found it very telling (telling of what, I'm not sure) that we S/J fans usually call our ship Sam/Jack, but fans of slash and often gen usually call it Jack/Sam.
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I'm going to ruminate on it a bit and hope to come back and comment further.
I do have one question now, though. Can't remember if you are a dark!fic reader, or not, but in my early fandom days there was a gal named Celeste who wrote it. One of them involved Jack having been held captive for a long time, and the only way he could be released back to earth was for Sam to take over his "care and discipline", which involved her basically torturing him at times. Not sure why this particular fic and only this one came to mind as I read your piece, but it did.
Reply
As far as what you are describing, which I think sounds like the kink of Sam as dominant (sexually, physically), can still coexist with gendered power imbalance. It's not just about doms and subs in a sexual sense, but a bit subtler, in daily interactions rather than just extreme situations. (Plus, the valid issue of if we are meant to find Sam torturing Jack 'romantic'. Or is it just a kink?) Not sure I am making sense. I can't comment on the story itself, but this is my vague impression on so little information. (And honestly, I'd rather not pick a part specific fics, no matter how elucidating it might be.)
Reply
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And, gosh. Slash. I think I could agree that a lot of women might find slash appealing because there is that inherent equality. But at the same time, slash relationships still have power imbalances (just not gendered ones), and have just as much stereotyped behavior as het as a genre. I'm certainly no expert on slash, but I might wonder if one of the draws of slash is as a way to have romantic power imbalances without having to justify gender inequality. A few readers/writers might use it just to avoid the question. But, of course, we are still talking about a partial contingent within the whole, just as we are in Sam/Jack fic. Hmmm. I'm sure there is probably meta within the slash community on these topics that would be much more elucidating than my half-formed wonderings.
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In the Talia books, Talia is tortured in the third book and it is very much NOT glossed over. She's damaged, and it takes time to heal (that said, the healing isn't really dealt with in detail, but the books aren't about 'here's how rape victims survive trauma').
To be fair, though, Lackey likes her real-world trauma (the SERRAted Edge books are all about elves and abused kids), and not a series goes by without some major character being massively tortured/raped/abused.
Other good stuff for her is the Enchanted Forest series, btw. Cimorene is AWESOMESAUCE.
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Yes, exactly. I know some people would say romance is for escape and they are darn tired of people like me trying to 'politicize' their pleasure reading, but the fact that a lot of us feel the need to create a power imbalance between the couple in order to relate, to feel entertained, and call it 'romance' just disturbs me. There is that fine line between reading a fic and thinking, 'well, this could be any two people', and reading fic that is recognizably Sam and Jack, yet still has been skewed (in my opinion) to fit the stereotypical 'romance' equation. (Which I have heard there actually is one, in the printed romance genre. X sex + X misunderstandings + X rescues of damsel = good book. Lol)
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I have always found it very telling (telling of what, I'm not sure) that we S/J fans usually call our ship Sam/Jack, but fans of slash and often gen usually call it Jack/Sam.
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