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bart_calendar April 3 2015, 11:11:01 UTC
At this point Greece should tell the IMF to fuck off and go back to Drachmas. That would not only be good for Greece it would be good for the EU as a whole because it would demonstrate that simply letting Germany decide what happens (and they generally push for policies that are good for Germany) that the EU has to look at what's good for everyone (so that Spain doesn't tell the Euro to fuck off six months from now.)

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gonzo21 April 3 2015, 12:16:54 UTC
I think this was really the only course of action the Greeks had from day one.

Which makes it baffling to me that foreign banks and governments leant them so much money, when it seemed so obvious that the only thing the Greeks could possibly do was default on it all.

But I guess the bankers figured it was a no brainer, because if the Greeks defaulted, then taxpayers here would be forced to pick up the tab. So the banks win either way.

But yeah, they have to go back to the Drachma and just deflate their way out of trouble. Things will suck for Greeks still in Greece for the next... 15-20 years, but... I think its the only path they have?

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bart_calendar April 3 2015, 12:18:43 UTC
It's the only path that makes any sense. And it's better than having Germany dictate their economy for the next 100 years.

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gonzo21 April 3 2015, 12:26:14 UTC
Yep, they've boxed them into a corner, bowing to the will of the Eurozone is not politically acceptable to the Greeks.

And it does look like spite-driven policy making to teach those filthy socialists a lesson for daring to elect a left-wing government. We'll show them, we'll bring their government down and install a government that does what it is told.

Which ain't gonna work, unless somebody somewhere is drawing up plans for a military coup. Which is not impossible I suppose. We've seen it before in Greece not all that very long ago.

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gonzo21 April 3 2015, 12:17:17 UTC
Does Greece blow up the Eurozone before or after our General Election? :)

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bart_calendar April 3 2015, 12:19:39 UTC
Before I think.

Isn't their default date next week?

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gonzo21 April 3 2015, 12:28:32 UTC
And amongst all this turmoil the thing I'd really like to know never gets answered, or even asked - who helped Greece lie to the Eurozone about their finances such that they got membership of the eurozone in the first place.

Because Goldman Sachs and co have made billions out of all this. And stand to make yet more billions.

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agoodwinsmith April 3 2015, 20:50:08 UTC
Regarding (lack of) economic growth: there's this:
http://jessefelder.tumblr.com/post/114539830195/how-the-baby-boomers-have-blown-up-the-stock

And also Thomas Piketty's entire _Capital in the 21st Century_ where he argues that growth will disappear, or rather be unable to achieve the levels it has achieved in the last 50 years or so, because of the reconcentration of wealth amongst a few, perhaps more extreme than during the belle epoche.

(speeling optional in all my postes)

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andrewducker April 4 2015, 13:56:10 UTC
Thank you - that first one was fascinating!

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naath April 7 2015, 10:19:34 UTC
Regarding pensions, surely "we need tax income" was one of the benefits of this policy... baring sure knowledge that you are shortly going to die taking all the money is a huge risk, I doubt most people could do better than an annuity company long-term even if they didn't immediately go out and blow it all on fast cars, and anyway with the tax they'd have less to play with.

My pension is decades in the future though, and defined benefit... so my personal level of caring about this policy is really very low.

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andrewducker April 7 2015, 11:24:33 UTC
"I doubt most people could do better than an annuity company long-term"

Annuities are notoriously bad value, because they're invested in incredibly stable investments (like gilts) that give returns around 2%.

Stick the same money in a tracker fund, and it will produce more money in the long run (trackers seem to be producing around 7% annualy over the last few years). You have to have a bit more self-control to not take excessive amounts of money out, or to risk investing it in riskier places/trying to beat the market.

Quite a good discussion here:
http://monevator.com/income-drawdown-versus-annuities-3-new-developments/

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