Am I really still obsessing about Seeing Red?

[anaross]

You know, this meta on why the AR in SR (g) doesn't work really makes me think that good writing depends on avoiding the generic. ME didn't avoid the generic in Seeing Red. Yes, I know Marti was supposedly modeling this on something that she did herself, but that in itself shows that it's not based on SPIKE and Buffy and what has happened in their

Comments

[anaross]

Well, I think the notion of having a soul (which all humans do) means you have a moral compass is one of those truisms that S4-6 (and just about all AtS) complicated-- I mean, where was Willow's moral compass? :)(It's not that I think most vampires could be good... it's that I don't think a soul makes humans good-- there's always some choice involved, and Spike does show that even a vampire, if a highly evolved one, can choose to do good, and that the most soulful of humans can choose to do bad.) But Buffy believed it, and that would be enough for Spike.

I like your idea that the Anya interlude would have been springboard enough, if it had been handled better. For example, Buffy could have pretended not to mind, but Spike could have realized how hurt she was really. And since he kind of blundered into the Anya-sex, he might actually think that if he had a soul, he'd know better what to avoid (not that humans reliable avoid such mistakes! :).

[2maggie2]

I also have problems with SR, but I really don't think they did this as a sop to Angel fans. They knew where they were going and that SR was going to set in train a series of events that ends in the Chosen, where it's Spike who gets the dramatic fiery flames of love shot with Buffy at the finale of the big epic fight. (And he's the last word we ever hear her say, and he gets the ironic commentary embodded in the shot of the welcome to the hellmouth sign falling in and, and, and

[anaross]

Yes, I'm constantly amazed by Bangels who look at End of Days and think that it means Buffy really loves Angel best. She barely gives him ten minutes. And Angel, as you say, is pretty out of it. He seems to me really eager to get away, and impatient with Buffy's eternal emotional issues-- he just killed his son, and she wants to talk about cookie dough. Of course, he's diminishing her that way, but that's part of why they're so mismatched. (And of course, it's my belief that he doesn't really love THIS Buffy, the one hardened by tragedy and loss, and that scene does a good job of showing it. But I always thought Darla was really the love of his unlife. :)

[kcarolj65]

I agree that Angel is really out of it in those EOD scenes, by turns sarcastic, insinuating and petulant. From his flippant invitation to kiss "Aren't you glad to see me?" (um, isn't that how all the trouble started?) to his parting shot, "I'm not getting any older," he seems darker than ever, but most of all, just going through the motions, doing and saying what he thinks Buffy expects of him. The only responses that seem honest and uncontrived are his surprise about Spike's soul and Buffy's defense of him, whereas his dealings with Buffy herself and their "relationship" lack the fire and passion and angst that made it all so poignant and endearing to the Bangel 'shippers. No wonder Buffy sent him on his way - she must have realized on some level that he was not the Angel she loved and she couldn't depend on him.

[aycheb]

Yes, and the Not!Angelness is why I think the trip to Sunnydale makes absolute sense given what he's just gone through. He's trying to get back to simpler times but is only capable of going through the motions.

[thedeadlyhook]

I agree. And I've never understood the critique that dealing directly with Spike's greyness as a non-souled character instead of giving him a patch in the form of a soul led to an unacceptable greying-up of Buffy and her mission, re: vampires. Because uh, is something wrong with that? If that's where the story's led, that's what I want to see it deal with - what if Buffy wasn't right, what if all the "bad" guys weren't so through-and-through bad that you could kill them without a flicker of conscience? What if Buffy had to use her own judgment in these matters rather than relying on the word of a controlling male authority figures - hey, call me crazy, but that sounds like an interesting story to me. (On the feminism front, it's always hard for me not to notice that in the post-"Seeing Red" continuity, we're made to understand Spike's feelings far more than Buffy's, and if we're really meant to take this seriously as a rape story, exactly what am I meant to find feminist in that particular treatment? Grr.)

[anaross]

Exactly-- if that's where the story leads, go with it. Have Buffy deal with the far more problematic nature of her mission. That would be interesting-- like in S7 when she has to kill the psych student who had just been counseling her... but actually show what that feels like. They'd been flirting with that issue since "Lie to Me," I think, when she killed Ford. But they never really make her deal with it, though the whole Spike S7 killing thing gets close-- she can't kill him even when he tells her to

[thedeadlyhook]

Yes, exactly. I have extremely huge problems with the way Buffy had to be made artificially weakened in order for this plot twist to even work. (An injury she doesn't even seem vaguely hampered by a few hours later, when she's facing down the nerd trio? Say what?)

I do think Spike's situation in S6 was a good analog for a lot of women's experiences in unhealthy relationships - which is why I think many women relate to him - but I'm far from confident that this was an intentional decision by the writers. Maybe it is like you said, more a case of writer identification rather than natural evolution for the character. Or put another way, maybe Spike seems like he has a more-or-less consistent arc, because of that writer identification, but Buffy's arc had to be twisted to fit it, because the writer identification wasn't there for her? (Obviously this is projecting a little hard into the heads of the creative staff, but...)

[kimrae1977]

Word. Amen. etc

[anaross]

You're right-- his greatest strength is the power of his words. And he loves her, and that actually is something that Buffy values, though she won't admit it.

And if that didn't work, if he couldn't talk her around, if his love wasn't enough-- it would definitely be enough for a dark night of the un-soul. :)

[seapealsh]

That's very interesting. You bring up some valid points. I felt the end of season 6 involved a lot of "out of character" moments.