On cultural intolerance

[alias_sqbr]

(A follow on from Speaking about bad ideas...atheism and race! since a lot of the same arguments came up in the comments)

Why I see cultural intolerance as racist: VERY few people in polite modern western society are explicitly racist in the "I hate everyone with dark skin" way. I tend to use "racist" to mean any tendency in society which

Comments

[arcadiagt5]

Consider the death penalty. Like most australians I find it abhorrent. What's more worrying is the way that we paint asian countries as incomprehensible savages for doing it..but not Americans.

Unless you run into a person who is genuinely opposed to the death penalty in all cases and thinks the Americans are also incomprehensible savages (on this matter at least) for doing it...

[alias_sqbr]

But I'm assuming you are also able to appreciate that that's not all there is to their society, and that a great many americans are lovely people, or oppose the death penalty (some of them even both at once :))

[babalon_93]

but surely most people are able to appreciate that about asian countries too?

[alias_sqbr]

I know I didn't, I had some very simplistic ideas about Singapore until I befriended nico_wolfwood (in my defense I was 15). I mean some people do, but they're not the ones I'm complaining about :)

[kadeton]

I mean you can't help but have values and judge other people by them, and since you don't grow up in a vacuum chances are you're going to end up seeing people from your own culture as being (on average) better since they follow your values more closely.

I would say it is essential that you have values and judge other people by them. The way you phrased that makes it sound like having values is an undesirable trait. I also think that societies can, to an extent, be measured by their attitudes towards "basic" or "universal" human rights... while that is perhaps a Western concept, I believe it is based upon sound reasoning. Others might not agree, which is why I think it's important that people realise that there is no such thing as an objective judgement

[alias_sqbr]

EDIT: Forgot to say: I'm still figuring out my stance on the whole "Values are important but everything's subjective so how do you judge stuff?" thing.

Oh, yes, I think there's LOTS of things wrong with american society, from the death penalty to the lack of preferential voting. I'm not saying we can't criticise america, I'm saying that we can do so without forgetting the good points and complexities of their society, and tend to frame it as wanting those parts of America which agree with our values to prevail rather than wanting to take them over and convert them. When we criticise other countries we aren't always so nuanced, and that is what I think is bad.

The thing is, according to an article I read a lot of what's seen here as "female genital mutilation" is consensual, done because the girls feel it's a necessary part of being a "proper woman". So apart from the poorer medical situation it is pretty equivalent to labiaplasty. Which isn't to say I'm in favour of it, just that's it's complicated.

[kadeton]

Hmm. That's essentially the definitional difference between criticism and prejudice, isn't it? Seems a bit self-evident.

I apologise, my understanding of female genital mutilation is limited. I was under the impression that it was generally performed on children, and was intended to make sex more painful. That seems far removed from cosmetic modification (which is not to say that the promotion of labiaplasty is a good thing).

There's an interesting grey area: how informed do you have to be before it's okay to criticise? Also: how many roads must a man walk down? :P

[alias_sqbr]

Well, yes, but that's why this post is against intolerance and not criticism :)

My understanding of FGM is pretty limited too, and I think it varies a LOT depending on region etc.

There's an interesting grey area: how informed do you have to be before it's okay to criticise? Also: how many roads must a man walk down? :P

42 :D

But yes, it's hard. I mean we have to make judgements about all this stuff (foreign policy, the environment, politics in general etc) and if we go by the crappy generalisations of popular culture we'll probably make the wrong decisions, but it's not feasible to get a really detailed understanding of EVERYTHING. This is why I try to identify better crappy generalisations, and good rules of thumb like "it's better to let people within a country create their own change than force it from outside" but then the information I make those judgements based on is itself flawed...

Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies

[gyges_ring]

Why I see cultural intolerance as racist: VERY few people in polite modern western society are explicitly racist in the "I hate everyone with dark skin" way. I tend to use "racist" to mean any tendency in society which consistently and unfairly discriminates against people of a particular ethnicity, even though most of these justify themselves using cultural rather than explicitly racist ideasWhat about the flipside of the coin? What about cultural tolerance? I mean, it's ridiculously simple to argue that people finding elements of other cultures praisworthy is racist. Orientalism, for instance, grew almost entirely out of the belief that the "peoples of the Orient" were much more "exotic" and "rich" and "developed" and "mystical" than those in the Occident. Similarly, you'll see the same kind of construct going round about "spiritual wholeness" and "bonding with the land" in relation to pretty much indigenous group in the world. And I've seen it argued exceptionally well that that is just as detracting to views of a full and complete

Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, something I've been trying to process is how to be a proud australian while being white and thus heir to a long history of oppression and conquest (I imagine it's a bit weird for non-white immigrants too, especially if the reason your ancestors came to a country was via something horrible like slavery). Because despite that I think Australia is overall, awesome, and I do feel a certain attachment to the land/bush etc myself (despite being an indoors, city sort of person)

Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies

[alias_sqbr]

There's a difference between valuing other people and cultures and exoticising and appropriation, the same way there's a difference between love and stalking :P You can argue against stalking and abusive spouses in the same breath without being hypocritical or in anyway criticising decent balanced relationships or romantic feelings, and similarly you can criticise cultural intolerance and exoticisation in the same breath without meaning that it's wrong to have opinions about other cultures at all.

Why the death penalty

[anonymous]

Noe, Let's not be culturally intolerent

Re: Why the death penalty

[alias_sqbr]

I am unscreening this since it's on topic and not a troll or whatever but
(a) From now on, please sign your comments, even just with "anonymous", otherwise I don't know that you're (at least claiming to be ) all the same person
(b) No being rude to other commenters
(c) I uh..I totally can't figure out your point here. That lots of smart people have been in favour of the death penalty for complicated thought-out reasons? Wasn't that part of my point? And no, I can't be bothered reading all those links without knowing what I'm even supposed to be drawing from them :P