That'd be awesome! I was just thinking a straight-forward list, one after the other (ala the Hal Jordan Head Injury Project), but a collage could work too. Whatever is the most effective way to display the laugh over and over and over again.
I was trying to think of all the appearances. Off-hand, I can recall it happening in the story with Tim Drake confronting Scarecrow for the first time, in the God of Fear, in Moench's origin Annual, Moench's story with Kelley Jones, possibly Crimson Mist, Grant's Waxman and the Clown, and Grant's Batman/Daredevil. I'm sure there are more. There HAVE to be more.
I agree on every single word about Tony Daniel and Harvey here, great ranting! I was willing to give Daniel the benefit och the doubt since his Two-Face arc in Batman clearly was cut short by editing who wanted to stress into the reboot, but his work on NuTec hasn't exactly shifted my opinon. He's not terrible, just utterly mediocre, heart in the right place or not. Oh well, at least Kudrianski's art will be pretty...
Some people who weren't even fans of Daniel's pre-DCnU work are really loving his current run on Detective Comics, but nothing I've seen so far looks any different. If anything, it's just now more gritty and violent. I will check it all out in trade if my library will get it, otherwise if I'm really pressed, I'll break down and pick up the copies in digital format the next time there's a sale on DC's Comixology app.
....I want to drown myself in my cup of coffee. This is such depressing news.
But I'm not sure who is more to blame for all this Tony or his obviously crap editor who knows fuck all about these characters (or doesn't care); I was just talking to a friend and this isn't the first character he's made serious errors with. Isn't it an editors job to make sure the writer gets it right?
As for his art work its not that bad; I can't draw that good so I can't really comment negatively too much there but I prefer things kept simple sometimes.
I'm not much of a fan of changing character back stories to be honest. I think if it changes too much you loose the understanding of what's made that character and I just don't like that :P everyone is entitled to their opinion on that one. But in all seriousness I don't understand the need to change his back story since its been changed before and it works for him.
I think I will be joining you to wallow and possibly cry for a bit.
There's definitely an argument to be made for revisiting and refreshing a character's origins every generation or two (god knows I'm doing that with Harvey myself in fic), and I can especially understand them wanting to revise his origins for the DCnU. But ugh, I just don't trust anybody involved to handle all the nuances required in handling Harvey from both psychological and character aspects.
But don't cry, it'll be okay! These things go 'round and 'round. One just has to hold onto the stories one loves and wait it out. Circle of life and all that.
Harvey is a complex character I guess we'll just have to live in hope that it comes out well.
I did wallow a little I admit.Me and a friend were discussing it for a while and came to the same conclusion enjoy the stories we love and eventually it'll get better.
To be fair, at least Catgirl has sort of a precedent - if you consider 'Dark Knight Strikes Again' a precedent. It's a STUPID one, but at least it's there. I agree, though, a solo manipulator like Strange does not NEED a son and heir. The whole appeal of the character is that he's a cerebral, manipulative bastard who is obsessed with taking down the Batman - humanizing him in this way is the WORST thing you could do to him. He's already human in the sense that he has deep, tragic flaws - he doesn't need a warm and cuddly side. Also, I know the "losing end" bit gets your goat, but otherwise, isn't a psychological thriller approach to Harvey a pretty good use of the character - in theory, anyway?
... if you consider 'Dark Knight Strikes Again' a precedent.
In this case, I do not, based on the context of the story Daniel told with her.
Also, I know the "losing end" bit gets your goat, but otherwise, isn't a psychological thriller approach to Harvey a pretty good use of the character - in theory, anyway?
Well really, that kind of IS the psychological thriller one would tell with Harvey. Thing is, we've just seen that a couple of times so far already, and while it's a story I'd really love to see done well, it's been so fucked up time and time again. Have you read Batman: Jekyll & Hyde? That was the last time someone tried fleshing out Harvey's backstory while looking at how he's on the losing side of his internal struggle. That was at least a glorious disaster of a failure. I have less hopes for anything that entertaining by the time Daniel's through.
The point, though, is surely that they're at least TRYING to tell his story well? I mean, I'll take an honest failure over an outright trainwreck any day. The Spirit movie, for instance, was a jaw-dropping mess, but I did get the feeling that Frank Miller was trying his best to give us his actual interpretation of what the Spirit was. The trouble was, he did this while A: being a complete newbie behind the camera and B: being Frank Miller. I have not, but I'll take your word for it.
I prefer to have it both ways, when it's an outright failure that was made with the best of intentions and the highest of ambitions, know what I mean? The Spirit is a perfect example. Daniel, on the other hand, is often tedious and boring, which even Miller's worst work certainly isn't.
Eh, it could be WAY worse. Like I said, Daniel's more aggressively mediocre than anything else. Actually, I dunno, maybe that IS worse than someone who's out-and-out awful and incompetent taking on Harvey. At least that way, it might have been a GLORIOUS disaster. But this way, there are so many idiots out there whose standards of quality are so low that my "medicore" is their "awesome!"
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That is all.
By the way, since you seem to be too busy to do so, how'd you like me to make a collage of the Moench/Grant Scarecrow "Hroo-hraaa"-ing?
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I was trying to think of all the appearances. Off-hand, I can recall it happening in the story with Tim Drake confronting Scarecrow for the first time, in the God of Fear, in Moench's origin Annual, Moench's story with Kelley Jones, possibly Crimson Mist, Grant's Waxman and the Clown, and Grant's Batman/Daredevil. I'm sure there are more. There HAVE to be more.
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But I'm not sure who is more to blame for all this Tony or his obviously crap editor who knows fuck all about these characters (or doesn't care); I was just talking to a friend and this isn't the first character he's made serious errors with. Isn't it an editors job to make sure the writer gets it right?
As for his art work its not that bad; I can't draw that good so I can't really comment negatively too much there but I prefer things kept simple sometimes.
I'm not much of a fan of changing character back stories to be honest. I think if it changes too much you loose the understanding of what's made that character and I just don't like that :P everyone is entitled to their opinion on that one. But in all seriousness I don't understand the need to change his back story since its been changed before and it works for him.
I think I will be joining you to wallow and possibly cry for a bit.
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But don't cry, it'll be okay! These things go 'round and 'round. One just has to hold onto the stories one loves and wait it out. Circle of life and all that.
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Harvey is a complex character I guess we'll just have to live in hope that it comes out well.
I did wallow a little I admit.Me and a friend were discussing it for a while and came to the same conclusion enjoy the stories we love and eventually it'll get better.
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I agree, though, a solo manipulator like Strange does not NEED a son and heir. The whole appeal of the character is that he's a cerebral, manipulative bastard who is obsessed with taking down the Batman - humanizing him in this way is the WORST thing you could do to him. He's already human in the sense that he has deep, tragic flaws - he doesn't need a warm and cuddly side.
Also, I know the "losing end" bit gets your goat, but otherwise, isn't a psychological thriller approach to Harvey a pretty good use of the character - in theory, anyway?
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In this case, I do not, based on the context of the story Daniel told with her.
Also, I know the "losing end" bit gets your goat, but otherwise, isn't a psychological thriller approach to Harvey a pretty good use of the character - in theory, anyway?
Well really, that kind of IS the psychological thriller one would tell with Harvey. Thing is, we've just seen that a couple of times so far already, and while it's a story I'd really love to see done well, it's been so fucked up time and time again. Have you read Batman: Jekyll & Hyde? That was the last time someone tried fleshing out Harvey's backstory while looking at how he's on the losing side of his internal struggle. That was at least a glorious disaster of a failure. I have less hopes for anything that entertaining by the time Daniel's through.
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I have not, but I'll take your word for it.
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