Eternal Brain Rot

[wade_scott]

Training men is like herding cats.

I know, I know, I sound like one of those bitter women who hate men who really just need a good fuck (according to every man when a woman says she's fed up with the male half of the species).  But in all honesty, I hate trying to train a man to do my job.  Why?  Because they already know what they're doing and they

Comments

[harmony_bites]

Which strikes me as ironic--Canon Snape is NOT a nice guy. In fact, he can be considered (by me) as downright abusive... So why do downtrodden women sail on this 'ship? You would think that they would abhor this behavior. (Granted, I don't know the identities of your friends mentioned. I don't know what kind of stories they write or read. I'm just making a generalization based on the Austen-like parallels rampant in SS/HG.)

Except I think it's not Austen that's the best example in this case. Ever read Pride and Prejudice? Aristo aside, it does have paralells for how some of us see Snape and how he and Hermione might relate. Darcy isn't an abuser, and Lizzie is no doormat who transforms him through love.

First, there's the prejudice part--and that's on her part. Darcy seems arrogant, abusive of his power, vain and proud of his heritige. There is a bit of that last--and when Darcy asks Lizzie to marry him she turns him down. That causes him to write her a letter so we see things from his POV, and that causes us to realize there are often *reasons* for how he acts that are entirely justified. He's not what he seems. Also, what is justified in Lizzie's telling off of Darcy does cause him to reflect on his behavior and change. So, in P&P, it's partly a change in perception, partly "redemption."

The story that attracted me to the ship is Falling Further In, precisely because it did do a Darcy-like reversal--a deft one--where we do see things from a Slytherincentric POV that so shifts your perceptions, you can't see canon events the same way. I don't think it excuses.

I think that's often the best part of fanfic, that it takes canon materials and causes you to look at a character afresh. The story I had the most acclaim for in Trek did much the same--for a female character seen as a villain--T'Pring.

But basically, both I and the writers I like write what is known as "fanon Snape" though I tend to think that unfair because I think we're writing from canon as much as anybody. The people I'm thinking of who have been abused generally write what is known as "canon Snape" That is, Snape is nasty and abusive--there's no justification such as protecting his House or a persona for spying, he doesn't really change, and Doormat!Self-abnegating!Hermione loves him anyway.

I certainly think it's true, that if you're drawn to abusive men, to that persona, and want to somehow justify it--Snape--both his canon behavior and even his appearance and environs lends himself perfectly to it.

Incidentally, I've read quite a bit outside my OTP. You won't find rapefic in Ron/Hermione--just doesn't exist that I've seen. It's also rarely found in ships that don't include Snape. In ships that do include him (Snape/Hermion, Snarry) it's common.

[wade_scott]

Incidentally, I've read quite a bit outside my OTP.

I know you have. You read a LOT of fanfic. I got tired of the chaff and just wait for you to throw out the wheat. :)

You won't find rapefic in Ron/Hermione--just doesn't exist that I've seen. It's also rarely found in ships that don't include Snape. In ships that do include him (Snape/Hermion, Snarry) it's common.

That's what I find interesting, really. It's another power dynamic. I almost grieve for the writers of rapefic and those that eat it up.

Thank you for (*sighs*) again exposing my ignorance. In all honesty, I hate to read Jane Austen. I think I got a few chapters in and threw the book across the room. Maybe I'm just tired of the same re-hashed plot on this 'ship and projecting it onto poor Jane due to my dislike of her books. I would be embarrassed by being raked over the coals, but I figure I've made you roll your eyes at me more times than not and you still entertain my ramblings. You can't hate me all that much. ;)

But this tangent subject has me interested. I'm off to interrogate--er, interview other 'ship friends about the phenomenon.

[harmony_bites]

I adore Austen--many SSHGers do, but I don't think they're the ones that read or write Rapefic or the more abusive Snapes. bambu345 and snarkywench_64 are two examples of big Austen fans--in fact, the love of Austen *is* striking in the ship, again, far more common than I found in Trek or my general acquaintance.

But I think it's not tracking the same phenomena, but the bifurcation between SSHGers. I think two different kind of people are drawn to Snape. There are those of us enchanted with the idea of someone who is more, or different, than he seems. To seeing under the surface. For us, a lot of the fun of the fanfic is in changing our perceptions, so that you see that how we've seen Snape is because of the Harry filter, or shows that there are good "teacherly" reasons for how he acts, or that it's partly because of his role as a spy--that show us how biased things are thru a Gryffindor lens--this tracks the "Pride and Prejudice" scenario perfectly, which is as much about how Lizzie was wrong to take Darcy at face value as it is about Darcy changing his behavior.

In this vein of fanfic there are all sorts of canon nuggets used to suggest a different figure. Like KazVL having Snape explain he made the "I see no difference" remark to defuse a dangerous situation to Duj having Snape explain that he meant he saw no difference between what had been done to Hermione by Draco and what had been done to Goyle by Harry. Try KavVL's Falling Further In sometime, or Caeria's Pet Project and you'll see what I mean. And both these stories btw have kickass, active, bossy, *smart* Hermiones--not doormats.

Bambu and Snarkywench above all are Hermione writers and ship her not just with Snape but Draco and Fred. Snarkywench is working on a Harry/Hermione, and Bambu has written her with Viktor and Blaise. They're both genuinely interested in Hermione as a character apart from Snape.

Then there are those who see, or like, Snape to be exactly how Harry--and certain comments of Rowling--see him--a deeply horrible man. They find that Snape sexy to the point of fetish. Perhaps, as you say, to justify their own sitch with men, or to see some light at the end of the tunnel, they create this scenario where Hermione has to suffer to gain or keep Snape's love--whether or not he changes. But to do so, imo they have to throw Hermione horribly out of whack. Because not in a million years do I see Hermione putting up with, let alone falling in love with, and abusive Snape.

But yes, the phenomenon is a real thing, and does I think explain both the popularity of rapefic in the ship, of writers from Mrs. Figg to amr, as well as the high proportion of SSHGers who seem to have been in abusive relationships with men.

[wade_scott]

I think I fall into the category of the Hermione writer. What brought me into the ship initially was the concept that they share a common history--both had childhoods lost to the fight against Voldemort. Hermione is fortunate, because she will leave the actual war in her childhood (because really, what's the point of seven books if Voldemort isn't defeated?). Snape has had to carry that into adulthood. And like Sirius, whose development was arrested upon his admittance to Azkaban, I think Snape is stuck at the point between becoming a Death Eater and Dumbledore's Man (whatever timeline those events follow) and that's what we see of him during Harry's time at Hogwarts. A lot of the fun for me in re-reading the series after HBP is piecing out what is Snape's "spy-face" and what is simply baggage from his own fractured childhood. I see Voldemort's defeat as Snape's "get out of jail" card, when he can start to heal and become.

But what draws Hermione and Snape together is that although the war is left behind, there are some wounds that become scars and it's the learning how to adjust from there. I don't think anyone could understand Snape unless they've been through the same kind of fight for and loss of innocence.

If any of that makes sense.

[harmony_bites]

What brought me into the ship initially was the concept that they share a common history--both had childhoods lost to the fight against Voldemort.

Ever read Dyce's Survivors? Because part of what I found so striking in that story is how she made a case for Snape and Hermione carrying similar scars, and not just from the war. She drew paralells from Hermione of the first book and Snape of the Marauder era. Hermione has learned just how harrased and unpopular Snape was at Hogwarts, and remembering her own early misery, of Ron calling her "a horror" she feels that with Snape, there but for the grace of...the Troll..

I think that's why a lot of us see this as a natural pairing. You have these too very bright, rather nerdy people, unpopular in the way such people are unpopular--and early on Hermione had her own insecurity about her looks, based ironically on teeth and hair...

I think though--and it's a good thing I think that keeps your writing fresh, especially with Danae's input ameliorating it--is that you're not really like almost all SSHGers I know. You've said you don't much like Snape, though you feel sympathy. What you are is close to a Severitus person.

Severitus is the word given for Snape writers who write him in a non-slash relationship with Harry--as friends, mentor/protege, even father/son. I've read quite a few of these--some wonderful ones by Jocelyn, Greengecko and EM Snape. They tend actually to be very Gryffindorcentric, very pro-Harry. The way Harry and Snape find understanding is not by meeting half-way. They're very cleverly written stories of redemption usually where Snape learns he's been wrong all along, that Harry's this terrific kid and he changes. Harry can/has done no wrong.

What you more often get in SSHGers from Duj to Shiv, is Harry the prat--who isn't even capable of seeing how he's wronged Snape or coming to an understanding. Snape can/has done no wrong and sometimes in Duj it's really rather frightening--not just her stories but her reviews as she stretches things to ridiculous ends to justify what Snape has done. I think many, if not most, SSHGers would say that Snape doesn't need redemption.

I wouldn't go so far, but I'm not in the Severitus corner either. Yes, Snape is primarily responsible for what is ugly in his relationship with Harry. He never gave Harry a chance, like Sirius, ironically, he only sees James. Snape is the adult--and Harry's teacher. But Harry is guilty of misunderstanding after misunderstanding too. He sees what he does in the Pensieve (horribly invading Snape's privacy in doing so) but doesn't take it from there, except for a moment of forced pity, to try to reach out or understand. From the very first book, he's cast Snape as the villain, yet Snape has done his best to protect Harry anyway, in spite of not liking Harry much--which is part I think of what some of us do admire in him.

So I guess there's many different takes on Snape--plain despising him, which I once did. Feeling some sympathy for him but no real liking or admiration, to seeing him as flawed and damaged but a hero nevertheless--to refusing to see any flaw, (duj *cough*) so deeply do they identify.

[wade_scott]

I think that about sums me up. I all the characters have major flaws (except Neville, of course! :D), making them human and relatable. That's what's fun about playing with them.

I'm glad to say that I'm not quite to the Severitus end of the spectrum. Harry does carry old prejudices and has a lot to learn about humility, as well. I think that's why I liked OotP--because when it boils right down to it, Harry and Snape are so eerily similar. I'm looking forward to some sort of reconciliation between the two in DH.

[harmony_bites]

Harry and Snape are so eerily similar. I'm looking forward to some sort of reconciliation between the two in DH.

I'd agree--and because I both see that and like Harry and Snape, and mostly like, sometimes love the Hermione/Snape ship, I wish I could see a SSHG that had that too--one in which, unlike in Severitus, both meet the other half way--that both could see something in each to admire while admiting to themselves and each other their own contribution. I hate how almost all SSHG reduce Harry to some idiot--or a vicious prat that conspire to torture or kill Snape.

And to bring this back to our orginal tangent--there really are a lot of variations in Snermione--and it does seem to have something to do with one's attitude about males. Shiv and Bloodcult--both of whom interestingly commented on the original post, are people I tend to think of as not simply feminist but out and out matriarchal in a lot of their views. They tend to write very strong Hermiones capable of "managing" a Snape who can be from somewhat clueless to dark to both--but Hermione definately has the upper hand.

Then there are those, I tend to think it's those whose experience with males are more positive, who write/read a more "fanon" Snape along the Darcy lines I spoke of (not in terms of being aristocratic, but misunderstood, yet heroic). They tend to write stories where Hermione is no doormat, but someone who finds her equal in Snape--as he does in her. These are generally the writers I love the most: KazVL, Quillusion, Deeble, ShyViolet, Bambu, LotM, SnarkyRoxy, Helga Von Nutwhimple, Melisande.

Then there are those who, whatever their outward views on feminism love to write Snape as a predator--and Hermione as a doormat. NOT my fav writers.

I guess I could add another cat. duj, for instance, obviously adores Snape, and she doesn't write him as a predator, but also seems thinks Hermione isn't really quite up to snuff.

And whichever variation you see of the above--the interesting part is that we're all--or almost all--readers and writers alike--women.

And btw, I saw misogyny in Trek too--but not in Het--in slash. Don't know how much of the original series you ever saw, but I used to make the women of Trek something of my specialty--one I once toyed with writing was Janice Lester, of whom Kirk said that "she hated her own womanhood" I once asked a friend, how I could express that in fiction. Her answer? "She writes m/m slash?"

I've never bought that women write m/m slash because the power dynamic is equal and it empowers them. There are some fine, insightful slash writers in both fandoms so I don't want to generalize, but most slash I've read inviscertes women when it's not busy making them invisible.