racism and antisemitism

Sep 09, 2007 18:14

I was going to post about my response to ibarw (International Blog Against Racism Week; visit the comm for links and discussion), and kept putting it off, because I get the sense that people's feelings are still rather raw, and goodness knows we don't need another round of "those Italians/Hungarians/Russians/Protestants/whatevers beat up my grandparents ( Read more... )

politics, religion, personal

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elishavah September 9 2007, 23:03:40 UTC
I had a hard-copy post (i.e., something I was scribbling in a notebook in the wee hours, when I could bear to think about it) back during the first IBARW about this. Primarily about how 'being able to pass' feels at times like I'm being...it's more than being 'ignored,' it's being 'deliberately not thought about.' Because there IS the sense of 'don't you dare protest; it's not the same! Go away now, you who have nothing to truly complain about' that comes from all sides. Sometimes I honestly do think I'd rather be obviously Not The Same, because it's also about how it twists something hard inside me every time someone assumes that I am some form of Christian -- something that's happened a gazillion times in a gazillion ways, without any thought at all that it might be otherwise, and makes me feel like I simply don't exist. And about how that twist turns into nausea when it's something said without thought by someone who damn well knows that I am not. It doesn't matter that more often than not, it's not done with deliberate intent to ( ... )

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vaznetti September 9 2007, 23:30:17 UTC
I'm tired of being silent on just about everything that matters to me, so, yeah. It's not the same. But it's not nothing, either.

Yes, I was getting tired of being silent -- and feeling silenced -- about this issue, and that post was what I needed to get me to not be silent. I grit my teeth through IBARW, and then decided it wasn't worth making a fuss about, but it turns out that it was.

...because it's also about how it twists something hard inside me every time someone assumes that I am some form of Christian -- something that's happened a gazillion times in a gazillion ways, without any thought at all that it might be otherwise, and makes me feel like I simply don't exist.This bothers me more at some times than it does at others; especially living outside the US you just have to kind of accept the fact that everyone thinks everyone else is Christian, and that the people who aren't should just shut up about it. But I do reserve the right to wish people a Happy Hanukkah when they wish me a Marry Christmas, because I like to see ( ... )

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hossgal September 9 2007, 23:40:07 UTC
right to wish people a Happy Hanukkah when they wish me a Merry Christmas

Perhaps I'm confused, but I always thought this is what you were *supposed* to do - either respond with the appropriate 'blessing' of your own, or, if none applied, say "And the same to you!"

(Like, if I'm leaving, and another person's staying, they say "travel safe" and I say "you too" (generally out of reflex) or "stay safe".)

I get confused (and a bit defensive) when people say that I'm *not* supposed to wish random people Merry Christmas (or, "Happy Fourth!" or what ever) as the season dictates.

(I do think that more particular-religion-specific stuff (greeting cards with scripture verses or pictures, f'zample) might be best left to those people you're pretty sure will appreciate it.)

Your thoughts?

- hg

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vaznetti September 9 2007, 23:51:20 UTC
Perhaps I'm confused, but I always thought this is what you were *supposed* to do - either respond with the appropriate 'blessing' of your own, or, if none applied, say "And the same to you!"

I pretty much agree -- and don't really mind being wished a Merry Christmas -- but you would be surprised to know how many people actually look shocked and offended when I turn around and wish them a Happy Hanukkah. Some people smile and accept it, some people look a little surprised (up to standing with their mouths gaping open), but a lot of people get kind of huffy about it. That's when it gets a little offensive, I think -- it's all down to the way the person acts at that point.

Like, if I'm leaving, and another person's staying, they say "travel safe" and I say "you too" (generally out of reflex) or "stay safe".

I always say "you too," out of reflex, and then feel like a dolt.

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alixtii September 10 2007, 01:16:32 UTC
I always say "you too," out of reflex, and then feel like a dolt.

Adding absolutely nothing to the actual conversation, but me too!

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fourteenlines September 11 2007, 03:06:26 UTC
This comment is totally tangential to the subject at hand, about which I have nothing of value to contribute other than, "Thank you for posting this."

But in relation to this particular comment of yours:

Being that I don't celebrate any of the "winter" holidays, my standard answer to "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" is a smile and a thank you, and that still makes some people huffy and irritated. It's like not getting that return greeting is messing with their desire to pretend that they're living in a holiday-themed Dickens village, and that just means I'm harshing their vibe, man.

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jood September 10 2007, 01:13:07 UTC
I've been trying to figure this out, but I can't find a way to verbalize my discomfort with this notion.

I always thought the purpose of wishing something to someone was that the thought should be personal; I don't feel comfortable wishing someone Happy New Year! in September unless I know they're Jewish. Otherwise, why would they even care, or appreciate the sentiment?

I think it might be a kneejerk reaction to anything that smacks of proselytizing, to which I appear to be allergic. It might also be part and parcel of having grown up as a very small minority, where a member of the majority would look at you as if you'd sprouted antennae if you wished them happiness for anything other than their own festival.

Hrm.

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hossgal September 10 2007, 03:18:10 UTC
Huh. It appears that we're coming from different places here. And by 'different' I mean 'not the same', not 'one is bad and the other right'.

I think that part of the ideal living in a diverse culture would be everyone feeling as though they can celebrate who they are, in the sense of "yah! us!" and not "you - you-there-not-us - YOU SUCK ( ... )

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elishavah September 10 2007, 14:20:26 UTC
This is me speaking for me, obviously, but I feel like it needs to be said in this type of discussion.

Some of it is the sense, intended or not, of forced assimilation. In so many countries and cultures, Jews have been, and still are, forced to hide and forced to pass. Christianity has experienced this, too, but in U.S. society as it currently stands, I can't help sometimes thinking that the automatically said words and wishes are an unconscious press gang. It feels like the majority is all but thumping me on the head with We Are All; What You Are Doesn't Count. There isn't even the vague invitation of "be like us"; it's just all, "there is nothing that's not us." And no matter how much I know that you, hossgal, don't think same : not the same :: good : bad in this situation, and that I think you know and regret how rare that is, I honestly don't know whether you can understand how it feels to live with the way the general populace behaves on a daily basis when it comes to Judaism ( ... )

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jood September 10 2007, 14:35:33 UTC
I can't help sometimes thinking that the automatically said words and wishes are an unconscious press gang

Thank you so much. This is exactly how it feels for me, and it makes me so sad that I can't express this to the very nice, very kind folks who don't realize the implications of some otherwise well-intentioned wishes.

The pressure to become "normal " here is almost suffocating, again (as I mentioned elsewhere in this conversation) assuming that Christian is the default spiritual state.

I also find it difficult to fully accept proselytizing as a well-intentioned part of another person's faith when the often-unstated consequence is that they believe I am doomed to an eternity of divine punishment for failure to comply. That doesn't feel like love or respect to me, it feels like coercion. From the perspective of those who genuinely wish to share The Word, it must be very difficult to understand how it feels to be told almost continually that I am not as good as they are.

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vaznetti September 10 2007, 17:39:06 UTC
Thank you for saying this. Yes.

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hossgal September 11 2007, 00:24:31 UTC
Just to say that I am in the midst of shifting households *today*, but I will be back to this later, because I want to answer your comment thoughtfully, and that, in particular, I thank you for this:

an even more inexact example, but I'm trying to help, here: it's also something like how I imagine you and others on LJ feel when anyone at the liberal end of the spectrum "speaks for everyone."It's not an exact example, no, (and not just because it's still not widely acceptable to say 'I'd rather cross the street than have to say hello to a Jew' on lj *g*) but that you acknowledge the existance of that type of exclusion/bias goes a tremendously long way to increasing my goodwill in this discussion (already pretty high towards you, and I hope you know that) and it *does* serve well as a meeting point of "this is how/why this makes me feel bad ( ... )

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elishavah September 11 2007, 01:59:37 UTC
Damn it, no, that wasn't what I meant. Who IS the majority.

::sigh:: I'm tired and you're shifting, so...how about for the time being we just agree that we know we're not out to get each other, and then come back later. Because I do mean to write up that post, and I hope that it will help, not hurt.

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bluflamingo September 11 2007, 23:08:11 UTC
I just wanted to say thank you for posting this comment, because you made me think about holidays and holiday greetings, and what they mean in a way that I never really have before, particularly with what you said about the holiday, even if it's more secular now, still being tied to another religion. I hope this doesn't come across as patronisingly as I fear it will - like I'm saying that the only value in your experience is to teach me something, when I mean that I'm grateful to you for talking about it and making me more aware of something I wasn't before.

And now I'm shutting up because I feel an onset of deep-hole-getting-deeper.

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vaznetti September 11 2007, 23:57:06 UTC
I think a lot of secular Christians don't really think of Christmas as a religious holiday, but it is, at root.

And obviously, I think people recognize on an individual level that someone wishing you a Merry Christmas is usually only trying to be nice -- the problem is the constant repetition of it, which starts to get alienating.

Thank you for commenting!

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