racism and antisemitism

[vaznetti]

I was going to post about my response to ibarw (International Blog Against Racism Week; visit the comm for links and discussion), and kept putting it off, because I get the sense that people's feelings are still rather raw, and goodness knows we don't need another round of "those Italians/Hungarians/Russians/Protestants/whatevers beat up my grandparents

Comments

[hossgal]

Huh. It appears that we're coming from different places here. And by 'different' I mean 'not the same', not 'one is bad and the other right'.

I think that part of the ideal living in a diverse culture would be everyone feeling as though they can celebrate who they are, in the sense of "yah! us!" and not "you - you-there-not-us - YOU SUCK!".

I think being apologized to as part of the Yom Kippur, being offered red envelopes as part of the Chinese New Year, being asked "are you saved" by Southern Baptists, being wished Feliz Navidad and Happy Chusok is part of people acknowledging me as "like them", as being wished well and inviting me into their human family.

On the other hand, perhaps related to being Christian (in America) - because proselytizing is (as I see it) inherent to my faith, and because in American, if you're not advertising, you're going backwards - I might be more tolerant of "competing brands" than some other people.

I'm not happy to hear that other people have acted as though you were imposing on them by having a faith that was not their own. That's not right.

-hossgal

[elishavah]

This is me speaking for me, obviously, but I feel like it needs to be said in this type of discussion.

Some of it is the sense, intended or not, of forced assimilation. In so many countries and cultures, Jews have been, and still are, forced to hide and forced to pass. Christianity has experienced this, too, but in U.S. society as it currently stands, I can't help sometimes thinking that the automatically said words and wishes are an unconscious press gang. It feels like the majority is all but thumping me on the head with We Are All; What You Are Doesn't Count. There isn't even the vague invitation of "be like us"; it's just all, "there is nothing that's not us." And no matter how much I know that you, hossgal, don't think same : not the same :: good : bad in this situation, and that I think you know and regret how rare that is, I honestly don't know whether you can understand how it feels to live with the way the general populace behaves on a daily basis when it comes to Judaism.

So on one hand, I know that Happy/Merry Anything said in, say, April or December is usually meant to be a general wish of goodness and health and so on, and I do my best to take it in that spirit, because thank you. On the other hand, no matter how secular a Christian may feel Easter or Christmas have become, they're still holidays of a religion that is NOT MINE. I wouldn't wish anyone who isn't Jewish a happy new year this week, any more than I would've wished someone from Japan happy new year this past February. I've been dancing around saying this, but it's insulting, frankly, in a way that I'm not sure anyone who isn't the majority could understand. It's not an exact parallel, but even in the Guy Fawkes/4th example Minnow started, you're coming at it as an American, which in this day and age puts you in the position of power, whereas I imagine a Briton might feel a bit different about it, considering the number of Canadians I've heard speak up when an American wishes them Happy Thanksgiving in November. Um, an even more inexact example, but I'm trying to help, here: it's also something like how I imagine you and others on LJ feel when anyone at the liberal end of the spectrum "speaks for everyone."

Anyway, I'm not walking around a seething ball of Offended or anything, because it's just easier to get through life if I'm not. But there are times when I have to pull back into a corner for a while, because the other alternative is to grab nearly everyone who speaks to me, and shake them while asking, "Do you even realize what it sounds like you're thinking?!"

[jood]

I can't help sometimes thinking that the automatically said words and wishes are an unconscious press gang

Thank you so much. This is exactly how it feels for me, and it makes me so sad that I can't express this to the very nice, very kind folks who don't realize the implications of some otherwise well-intentioned wishes.

The pressure to become "normal " here is almost suffocating, again (as I mentioned elsewhere in this conversation) assuming that Christian is the default spiritual state.

I also find it difficult to fully accept proselytizing as a well-intentioned part of another person's faith when the often-unstated consequence is that they believe I am doomed to an eternity of divine punishment for failure to comply. That doesn't feel like love or respect to me, it feels like coercion. From the perspective of those who genuinely wish to share The Word, it must be very difficult to understand how it feels to be told almost continually that I am not as good as they are.

[vaznetti]

Thank you for saying this. Yes.

[hossgal]

Just to say that I am in the midst of shifting households *today*, but I will be back to this later, because I want to answer your comment thoughtfully, and that, in particular, I thank you for this:

an even more inexact example, but I'm trying to help, here: it's also something like how I imagine you and others on LJ feel when anyone at the liberal end of the spectrum "speaks for everyone."

It's not an exact example, no, (and not just because it's still not widely acceptable to say 'I'd rather cross the street than have to say hello to a Jew' on lj *g*) but that you acknowledge the existance of that type of exclusion/bias goes a tremendously long way to increasing my goodwill in this discussion (already pretty high towards you, and I hope you know that) and it *does* serve well as a meeting point of "this is how/why this makes me feel bad".

I think a lot of IBAR, because of the focus and tone of the debate, forces the discussion *away* from those points of commonality that otherwise would serve the discussion well. (The concept of bigotry towards Jews being one of those that I saw was expressly *excluded* from discussion.) I thank you for letting us - you and me - have a (somewhat) common meeting place.

While I'm at it - does this passage read like you intended it to?

I wouldn't wish anyone who isn't Jewish a happy new year this week, any more than I would've wished someone from Japan happy new year this past February. I've been dancing around saying this, but it's insulting, frankly, in a way that I'm not sure anyone who isn't the majority could understand.

- hg

[elishavah]

Damn it, no, that wasn't what I meant. Who IS the majority.

::sigh:: I'm tired and you're shifting, so...how about for the time being we just agree that we know we're not out to get each other, and then come back later. Because I do mean to write up that post, and I hope that it will help, not hurt.

[bluflamingo]

I just wanted to say thank you for posting this comment, because you made me think about holidays and holiday greetings, and what they mean in a way that I never really have before, particularly with what you said about the holiday, even if it's more secular now, still being tied to another religion. I hope this doesn't come across as patronisingly as I fear it will - like I'm saying that the only value in your experience is to teach me something, when I mean that I'm grateful to you for talking about it and making me more aware of something I wasn't before.

And now I'm shutting up because I feel an onset of deep-hole-getting-deeper.

[vaznetti]

I think a lot of secular Christians don't really think of Christmas as a religious holiday, but it is, at root.

And obviously, I think people recognize on an individual level that someone wishing you a Merry Christmas is usually only trying to be nice -- the problem is the constant repetition of it, which starts to get alienating.

Thank you for commenting!

[elishavah]

Oh, no worries. Really, I'm glad my stumbling around on this is helping anyone in any way.

[veejane]

The "competing brands" concept of religious interaction is a concept new to me. Not only had I not really thought of it that way, I come from people among whom it wouldn't be considered polite -- in general, personal religiosity is an intimate topic, and bringing it up among strangers (especially to proselytize) would be weird and uncouth.

I know it is polite among people other than me, because otherwise those nice, freshly-scrubbed Mormon missionaries would not knock on doors, but that doesn't mean I'll ever get used to it.

[marinarusalka]

I think being apologized to as part of the Yom Kippur, being offered red envelopes as part of the Chinese New Year, being asked "are you saved" by Southern Baptists, being wished Feliz Navidad and Happy Chusok is part of people acknowledging me as "like them", as being wished well and inviting me into their human family.

I don't think these are all equivalent, though. Anyone who hands me a red envelope on Chinese New Year knows perfectly well I'm not Chinese, and if I apologize to somebody on Yom Kippur, it's well understood by everyone that I'm not actually assuming they're Jewish. (There's a level of personalization there, too -- I don't walk down the street on Yom Kippur randomly apologizing to anyone who makes eye contact with me.)

On the other hand, the dozens of people who wish me Merry Christmas every year usually are assuming I'm Christian, as shown by their reactions -- ranging from surprise to outright hostility -- when I respond with anything other than "Merry Christmas" back at them. I appreciate that most of these people mean well (except for the hostile ones), and agree that they're "acknowledging me as like them, as being wished well and inviting me into their human family," but to me that's kind of the problem. I'm not like them, in ways that are meaningful and important to me but apparently irrelevant to them, and I don't think I should have to be like them in order to be considered part of the human family.

It's not that I condemn people who wish me a Merry Christmas or think they're all out to oppress me or something. But spending several months out of every year repeating over and over and over that no, I'm not the default... it gets really tiring and depressing after a while.