Palin sends the cringe meter off the dial

[independent_uk]

 No one will be more relieved than John McCain if a major crisis erupts on Thursday to overshadow the debate between the vice-presidential candidates, Sarah Palin and Joe Biden.

Alaska's one-term governor is hugely popular with voters, but she is also a liability for the Republican ticket, as her painful-to-watch interview last week with Katie

Comments

[miss_sunshine82]

She can only be seen as a liability - due partly to her inexperience and partly to the fact that she has very uncompromising views which she doesn't seem to have the wit to temper at all. I'm not saying she should prove fickle in her views, but she has to realise that she has to govern an entire and very diverse country - not just the far right,oil-drilling, gun-toting, abortion-hating demographic. The rest of the country needs to see that she can put her personal beliefs second to what's best for the majority. There's been no evidence of that so far - it seems to be her way or the highway

[izuko]

It's always amusing to watch the spin. What is uncompromising in a conservative is "principled" in a liberal.

Oh, and as far as living and letting live, with the exception of abortion (which I really don't care to get into right now), just about all of her "sins" have been of the "this is what I believe, but if you don't, it's ok" variety.

On the other hand, Obama wants to confiscate the wealth of the rich and of the corporations. Yeah, I know, y'all have no sympathy for them. There are good victims and bad victims I notice. He wants to disarm the population (he only switched to supporting the second amendment when the Supreme Court ruled, and his voting record sets lie to his words), and has twice tried to use law enforcement to silence his opposition.

I love watching the left resort to their old stereotypes.

[adamwolf]

I love how you reduce the left to old stereotypes as well. 'Confiscate the wealth of the rich'? How about 'redistribute common wealth'? Especially in the case of businesses and corporations, the gain isn't personal or individually gained, and as an ecomonical factor it belongs to everyone. The idea of sharing commonly gained profits with those unable to gain similar profits is not the same as 'confiscating' or stealing.

[izuko]

It's not a stereotype for me to say it's confiscation. It's a matter of perspective. When you take what someone owns, using the police power of the state, it's confiscation. Now, in certain cases, it can also be redistribution. However, in the majority of cases, it's just plain ol' theft. Most of the rich have earned their money through hard work, perseverance, and good decisions. Your doctors and engineers are entitled to every cent of what they have. Your small businesses who took a risk, backed it with their own assets, and worked their tails off are entitled to every cent.

When you take money from them, via the police power of the state, it's confiscation.

Businesses and corporations don't belong to everyone. Their belong the the entrepreneur who started them, or jointly to the shareholders who own their stock. So, yes, it IS confiscation to take from them.

So your accusation of stereotyping is soundly rejected. As is the unspoken implication of hypocrisy.

[adamwolf]

I can see how from a libertarian point of view all redistribution could be considered theft. However, the way you phrased that was very stereotypical: 'the left' wants to punish people for making money. And that's not what 'the left' is all about

[izuko]

First of all, as a socialist, I would hesitate to call Obama 'left' at anything. His health care plan may give the state greater authority in redistributing wealth, but then again: isn't that the fault of the wealthy?Are they making sure the people who help contribute to their wealth have money for decent health care, then?

How is that their responsibility? They have their wealth, not because others gave it to them, but because they create the things that other people need or want. They owe nothing to anyone for it.

And what about the mass of unemployed?Tell them to get a job. The construction company I worked for, this past summer, was hurting for laborers. A construction laborer in the U.S. can expect about $15-18 an hour. That's pretty good for unskilled labor (BTW, just to prevent confusion, in the construction industry, the term laborer refers ONLY to the unskilled portion of the work force. Carpenters, masons, steelworkers, electricians, and the such are called trades or craftsmen, and command a much higher wage). The

[mattshepherd]

Tell them to get a job.

A cruel, dismissive, ignorant and arrogant statement, followed almost immediately by:

As a Christian, I believe that I am my brother's keeper.

Yeah, there's the famous Christian compassion, right there. Jesus was famous for wandering around, meeting the poor, destitute, hungry and crippled and yelling "get a job!"

If the Christian Right paid a little more attention to Matthew 7:3 and a little less to all the Old Testament eye-for-an-eye stuff, I could take them a lot more seriously.

[izuko]

A cruel, dismissive, ignorant and arrogant statement, followed almost immediately by:

Sorry if the facts are cruel.

Yeah, there's the famous Christian compassion, right there. Jesus was famous for wandering around, meeting the poor, destitute, hungry and crippled and yelling "get a job!"

If the Christian Right paid a little more attention to Matthew 7:3 and a little less to all the Old Testament eye-for-an-eye stuff, I could take them a lot more seriously.

Ever hear of the separation of church and state? You guys are all for it when it comes to abortion, but it doesn't seem to exist when it comes to your desire to play around with other peoples' money.

As far as the Old Testament goes, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it.

I'm all for compassion, I'm just not for theft.

[pennyann]

"Ever hear of the separation of church and state? You guys are all for it when it comes to abortion..."Yes, just like you are all right to life about abortion, yet have no respect for Iraqi lives. Killing their babies that are already born in the name of "collateral damage" is okay, but a mother deciding not to give birth to an orphan because the act of giving birth will kill her... not so much

[izuko]

You know, I'm tired of silly games...

Yes, just like you are all right to life about abortion, yet have no respect for Iraqi lives. Killing their babies that are already born in the name of "collateral damage" is okay, but a mother deciding not to give birth to an orphan because the act of giving birth will kill her... not so much.

What does this have to do with what I said about church and state?

And, on your continuing insistence that it is "theft" to redistribute the ill gotten gains of certain corporations and CEOs... Is it theft if they stole it in the first place, and did it in the same way you accuse Barak Obama of "stealing" it from them?

What does this have to do with what I said about church and state?

When you pad your successes and cook your books (like a lot of the folks at Fannie May and Freddie Mac did) in order to make yourself look good to get your millions in bonuses, that is not only lying, it is essentially STEALING in my mind. That's why so many of the ENRON folks went to jail.What does this have to do with

[pennyann]

"What does this have to do with what I said about church and state?"

It has to do with your use of abortion as an example of being on both sides of the fence about something (in this case, you were talking about separation of church and state and you used abortion as part of the example... I expanded your example out to the dual stance taken on right to life).

The rest of what I said has nothing to do with what you said about church and state... as evidenced in my language: "And, on your continuing insistence that it is "theft" to redistribute...". Sorry you didn't see the change in topic clearly enough, but I'm not sure how that means I am "playing silly games". Though I agree, and had to remind myself of what I said yesterday... talking to you is really a lot like talking to myself and I should refrain from doing it no matter how tempting I find it to want to correct what I see as glaring fallacy on your part.

Won't happen again. Promise.

[izuko]

Works for me. Talking to you has been... less than enlightening for me. Take care now. Ta ta.

[pennyann]

A number of times my posts here have been responded to with the words "excellent post" or "really good point!", so that it has not been enlightening for you does not bother me one whit. You would not really read what I had to say with the possibility of being enlightened anyway, your blinders are on and your mind is made up. You have already decided to argue against what most people have to say using any of the same old things I've heard Rush, Hannity or Michael Savage say a thousand times. No, I'm not surprised you are not enlightened.

Best of luck to you anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of other people here to nitpick semantics with... so you will have your fill without me. You take care too!

[reality_hammer]

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard, there!

You're in a liberal echo chamber, of course you hear comforting words about how wonderful you are.

*eyeroll*

Well, that was a well-reasoned... hang on, no it wasn't.

[mattshepherd]

Ever hear of the separation of church and state? You guys are all for it when it comes to abortion, but it doesn't seem to exist when it comes to your desire to play around with other peoples' money.

That... doesn't even make sense. What "guys?" I have "guys?" Will they help me install this drop ceiling? I've been putting that off for like weeks. Seriously... what in the world do you even mean? That people are using religion as an excuse to "play with other peoples' money"? Wh-- when? How? Who said that? Where did abortion come from? Do you have a list of Rush Limbaugh talking points that you refer to when you get called on BS?

My original point, before your bewildering rebuttal, was that a sweeping judgement of anybody unemployed as just needing to be told "get a job" is ignorant and, coming from a self-professed Christian, profoundly hypocritical. Emblematic of the breed of "Christianity" that has taken over right-wing politics and poisoned the well with greed, ignorance and fear: one of the things, dragging this back on topic, that

[mineowyn]

I'm all for charitable giving by the individual>/b>. The point is, No one owes you a living. The gvt doesn't owe you a living. We have to be independent and self-reliant.