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[the_ninth_bow]

I am back on the internets after a looong break... it seems like every time I go home for a short amount of time I give the internet a break and spend my time watching trash tv.  I think it's a combo of finally having a tv, as well as wanting to get off my computer I spend so much time working on for school. Idk.

But anyway!  I'm back in Boston :/

Comments

[the_ninth_bow]

Not too much longer... I'm actually in Boston right now until around June 30th taking a summer course :/ I'm not liking it too much, but at least it's only a 6 week course. And then it's home for good to finish up my thesis from home. So not too much longer!

Exasperated and apathetic are good words for all this nonsense.

And yeah, I think Cas was one of the better developed and more interesting characters of the show, and that's why I love him. And I'm ignoring s6 at the moment, too. tbh, SPN canon for me ends with season 5 (and I edit out Lisa's appearance in 5.17). I'm just taking it from here on out like a spin-off. It's just too different or sporadic from what the previous development was. And if they kill Cas off in the first episode I'll just stop watching. Maybe. Probably? Idk, it just won't be the same show if he goes that way. If he has to go, then fine, he has to go, but have some development! Have him be like "Oh, what have I turned into? Dean, kill me," and then have a major angsty, Dean/Cas full scene where he is given a good send off. But just killing him from all this? Would be stupid. idk. Maybe he will be in the entire season, but it just seems like they're running on empty and just reaching for straws now. blaahhhh

[pyjamagurl]

It's only another month, I'm sure you can do it ;) (I need to get back into writing, are you still okay with me sending stuff your way as I go? It'll probably be about another week before I have anything...)

I agree on Cas. He has been one of the best characters to come into the show, he brought something new and interesting to it when it really needed it I think, and he's left his mark. I am taking a leaf from your book and taking it as a spin-off too. S6 is all over the place, both in charactarisation and plot and I really don't feel like they knew what they were doing all season. I would really like for them to redeem Cas, for Dean to realise he has been an idiot and Cas still needs him, and that this really, really isn't Cas. I just don't think we'll get it. I think Sera wants the world cut back down to Dean and Sam, and Dean's probably going to be all gung ho on killing him.

The more Sera talks the more it is blatantly obvious she has no idea what she is doing and is clutching at straws. Thinking up a big shocking plot and then making your characters fit it really isn't the way to go though.

[the_ninth_bow]

I can! I just gotta keep pluggin away :P (And I'm totally still okay with that! I've been kind of blah lately, so haven't been doing any writing or editing, but I'll get back into it over the next week and start up again :)

I agree. Cas is really one of the shining elements of the show, and even just considering his character, he's one of the more fascinating I've encountered in shows and literature... he kind of just sticks with you. And yes, I hope Cas is redeemed and Dean realizes he's been an idiot. Because really, he's allowing Cas no mistakes (with the whole "I can't forgive you" thing) when really, Cas is kind of a teenager in terms of being free to use free will and make his own choices. So Dean shouldn't in any way shape or form be so hard on him. But I guess Dean has kind of always been a hard ass in some areas... not letting Sam being his own man, assuming Cas was 100% a-okay with a human's free will knowledge or whatever... he needs to start seeing the gray areas!! I hope the writer's pick up their slack and see some sense... I'll be keeping my fingers crossed, even though I doubt it as well :/

Sera Gamble hasn't got a clue as to what she's doing. She's ridiculous. It's like she's writing her own (bad) fanfiction with the boys. I haven't read a lot of quotes/interviews from her (eww), but her quote about how the show's about Dean and Sam and their trying to get back to that or something? I'm sorry, but shows DEVELOP, PEOPLE develop. In an ordinary life people come and go, and people form bonds. You can't just edit that out of a show (especially when it does start developing in that direction) just because you think a show's supposed to be about a certain thing or go in a certain direction. It's stupid. Characters are suppose to make the big bang, not the big bang the characters, so I totally agree. And also, this past season was supposed to be noire-ish? I don't know a lot about the genre, but I didn't really get the feel of that, so I have no idea where she's coming from. Kripke should just come back.

[pyjamagurl]

Oh goodo, I haven't added to my apocafic in forever but finally got back to it today. :)

I think the fact that Cas is one of those characters I fell hard and fast for is why it hurts so much that they've chosen to make him evil for the sake of plot. But yes, Cas made mistakes, I do think a lot of it comes down to having a whole lot of responsibility handed to him and not knowing how to deal with it (even telling all the other angels they were free was pretty naive of him when all of them are used to following orders) so yeah, while I disliked Dean calling Cas a baby in 6x19, I do think Cas still needs Dean. Dean was a moral compass for him in S4&5 not having that really hasn't done him any favours. I had just hoped that Dean had learned from shutting his brother out until he saw Lucifer wearing Sam in 5x04, and that he would fix that and actually listen to Cas instead of shutting down. But I guess Dean is stubborn to the very last. I don't know what to expect with the writing, I've heard they have brought in another two new writers to the table, so I don't know what to expect.

I completely agree on Sera. I've heard some people say that it's not all Sera's fault and that all the writers play a part, but I think the show runner has most sway, she can listen if people talk but she makes the final decision and I really get the feeling she hasn't a clue what she wants to do except bring the show back to Sam&Dean. See that's what's annoying me about people wanting it to be the Sam and Dean show again, things are supposed to grow and develop, characters meet new people, they have new relationships, taking that all away from them doesn't make them stronger. The show isn't just about Sam and Dean anymore. Or at least it wasn't until Sera got her hands on it.

I am not overly familiar with the noire genre either but I don't think this was really it. She seems to just say things that make no sense and think she's being clever, and she really isn't. I wish Kripke would come back, Sera's making a mess.

[the_ninth_bow]

yay! That's awesome :) Good luck with the writing!!

I agree. And that's an interesting point, about how Dean should have learned, basically, from seeing what happened when he shut Sam out in 5.04. Dean should learn from past mistakes, but yes, he is stubborn. Maybe he couldn't see that before. Or maybe he just put Cas up on this pedestal of sorts... he's so used to dealing with supernatural creatures that kind of have a handle on everything that is their-ilk related. Cas is kind of a hybrid... an angel who went human who went back to being an angel but still had some human traits and then free will to deal with and an army to lead during a war. He's not going to have a handle on everything, and I don't think Dean realizes that. I think he just expected Cas to be an a-okay, all-powerful angel, who has a grip on everything. When Cas really does need a little guidance, like you said. He obviously doesn't feel like Dean will answer his call for help (6.20), and even when he did Dean didn't answer it. So he's kinda lost. Hopefully Dean (and everything) will shape up. Maybe this whole mess will get Dean thinking?

Two new writers? :/ I wonder what they've done previously. idk, I'm just nervous the show's going to become like any other CW show (and I don't like any of the other CW shows :/) And yes, the show has moved on from being the Dean and Sam show. It was at the beginning, it was all about them and their family issues or whatever, but those issues were SOLVED for the most part. You can't keep on harping on the same issue for 6+ years. It would get freakin boring. The people who want the Dean and Sam shows back should go pull out their DVDs. And taking away all their other relationships makes them the opposite of stronger. If you really wanted to see the Sam and Dean storyline close up nicely, they'd be well-developed, well-rounded individuals with relationships and hobbies of their own and yet still close and brothers and hunting. But that seems to be the opposite of what people want. idk.

Sera always thinks she's being clever. She's not. She needs to get a clue. And I agree, too, that show-runner has a lot of say in things. Sure, other people can bring ideas to the table and try to fight other ideas, but the show runner has final say, I think. So she's not blameless by any means.

Also, YOUR ICON!! *cries*

[pyjamagurl]

Thank you xD

I do think you are right with how Dean thinks of Cas. I think he does put Castiel on a pedestal of sorts and thinks that Cas can handle himself, that if he really needs Dean he'll stop and ask (like he did in 5x03). I feel like it was out of character for Cas to lie to Dean for the entirety of S6 though. I just feel like he would talk to Dean before he agreed to do anything with Crowley, but I suppose he really did want Dean to stay out of things? For him to continue to lie after Dean got back into hunting is just stupid, yeah he'd realise he'd done something that Dean would frown upon but surely if he talked to Dean things could have been worked out? I don't know. I hope the mess does get Dean thinking, I will be so disappointed if Dean is going to continue being angry and hateful and determined Cas should die.

Yeah, I don't know their second names, I just know that Jim posted on twitter that there were two new Ben's on the writing staff. The CW is filled with teen dramas as far as I know, and other than ANTM I don't watch any of them.
You make an excellent point, the people who want Sam and Dean only should crack out their S1 DVDs (hell they had Bobby, Ellen and Jo all of S2, did they hate that too?) And I completely agree with you about seeing Sam and Dean as well-rounded characters with their own relationships an hobbies. Just because they know other people doesn't make them any less close to one another. I'd much rather watch that than for them to go back to s1 (which I loved, of course I did, but I enjoyed it far more when S4 came along) I really don't know how people think that cutting the world back down to Sam and Dean can be interesting and beneficial to the brothers at all.

It makes me sad that Sera really seems to be throwing away all the things I really loved about this show...

I'm sorry :( *hugs*

[the_ninth_bow]

I think it was out of character, as well. I thought for a while that they completely pulled that ending/storyline out of their asses at the end of the season, but apparently they told Misha that they were gonna kill him off or something in the last episode? Or I can't remember, but they said something that made it seem like this ending or Cas's underhandedness was planned from the beginning. Which I'm not convinced of. I do believe that Cas would make the deal, tbh, just because he seemed to want Dean to be happy, and if handling the angels, etc., by himself and making the deal kept Dean out of the hunting life, then I think he'd do that. For me, that just shows how much Cas loves Dean and wants him to be happy. But maybe it speaks a little about Cas's uncertainty of Dean's reaction to him. I mean, Dean is a rough guy, he'd never showed Cas in no uncertain terms by that point at the end of s5 that Dean would drop everything (drop his promise to Sam) to help Cas. So maybe Cas thought he was on his own (which was confirmed in 6.20, maybe?). And then when season 6 started, Dean kept on expecting Cas to drop everything in Heaven for him and then showed no concern or respect for heaven's war, and that just confirmed in Cas's mind that Dean wouldn't take his need for help seriously. idk if that makes sense, but the whole point is maybe a seed of doubt was in Cas's mind and then just grew from there. And yeah, I guess he did have some pride issues, which is not a huge surprise, I guess, considering he had angels looking to him for guidance, him being brought back by God, and his re-instatement as an angel, etc. But that's how I can reason it away, though I don't think he wouldn't kept it a secret the entire time. I think he would've cracked a lot earlier. The Pride factor wasn't developed enough for me to believe it was as strong as it was kind of made out to be.

And geeze, I won't be able to deal with that either. If Dean starts thinking Cas should die, I'm just gonna stop watching. It would be the writer's deliberately trying to get rid of Cas and mucking up character development in the process. It would be ridic, and completely going against what Dean believes (family, yada yada).

Oh man. Hopefully these new writers are good. And is Kripke coming back to the show in some capacity?? I think I might have heard that? idk. The only thing left on the CW is teen dramas. It's ridic. I get tired of watching the commercials for the same stereotypical, run-of-the-mill shows. SPN seems to be the only thing that has any substance to it. If it starts becoming another teen drama, I'll flip. And I keep thinking the people making a big stink against Cas and for more s1 action are Sam/Dean shippers. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's totally possible I am since I really don't know how many people ship them or if they're the ones making a stink. But it just seems like the only plausible reason why they'd want it to go back to going back to the Sam and Dean show. (and no, they didn't complain about Bobby or Ellen or Jo... mainly because none of them would end up with one of the boys, maybe, and even if Jo could end up with Dean, she was a kick-ass girl so she was ok. idk.) It just doesn't make sense to me why we'd throw everything back to have another season exactly like one of the previous ones. And I feel like I've been hearing a lot of Cas hate lately, and I don't know where that's coming from either. Unless, again, it's against moving away from Sam/Dean. Or the more urban legend, ghost story centric plot of the first few seasons. But like you, I loved what they brought in in s4. The angel plotline just opened everything up, made things a bit more grand-scale. I loved it. I don't love the beginning seasons less, but there are only so many ghost stories and urban legends you can do before you run out of material.

And I agree (again :P). Sera seems to be paring everything down. And not in a good way. It's frustrating.

[pyjamagurl]

I heard the same thing, that Misha had been told Cas was going to die at first, I hadn't heard anything of Cas' underhandedness being in it from the beginning (though I can imagine them saying that to make it seem like it had been on the cards from the beginning, which I just didn't see). I agree that Cas would make that deal too, I do think he was genuinely at the end of his rope. He couldn't let Raphael have his way because then Dean and Sam would be reliving their apocalypse and he doesn't want Dean in that kind of danger all over again. I do also think that Cas would be wary of telling Dean that he had made a deal with Crowley (which is why, perhaps, it would have made more sense to bring this in earlier and fully see Dean and Cas fighting/Cas defending his decision more, rather than this complete u-turn that happened towards the end) but I really do think Cas would tell Dean and try to get him to understand what he was doing. I do think Cas was a terrible liar until they needed him to be otherwise. (the more I think about it though, the more I think Cas was deliberately evasive all season, but I don't know if he really was or was just busy and this was all planted in our minds to go with this twist they created towards the end)

I think Cas deserves redemption after all he's been through. And y'know I'd really, really like for Dean to do something for Cas for a change. Prove him wrong, make Cas see that Dean does actually care and isn't just in this for selfish reasons. But again, I don't know if they will want to go that route.

As far as I know Kripke and Edlund both stepped down as Executive Producers, so they are still there, they are just passing the buck to Sera and Robert Singer. I used to think SPN had more substance, S6 has me thinking otherwise at times... I agree actually on the people who want rid of Cas and want S1 back, they seem to be largely Sam/Dean shippers and people who seem to have an aversion to a big plot arc (which I love, I like little stories that lend themselves to a bigger storyline). I always saw Dean/Jo as too sibling-y...my brother disagrees xD (but she was kick-ass, I loved Jo.)
I feel like I have heard a lot of Cas-hate lately too, and a lot of it seems to come from ontd_spnparty, where a lot of clashing ideas seem to be in the same place. There are people who loved him in S4 but then came to hate him in S5 because they didn't think they were doing anything purposeful with him, and others who now hate him because he took Sam's walls down (which he was going to fix, so I don't see all the fuss about that at all). I think a lot of it ultimately comes down to people thinking Cas comes in between Sam and Dean, which I disagree with. I think Cas works well with them and doesn't drive a wedge in between the brothers at all. I think it would be really interesting and fun actually to see Cas stuggling to adapt to being human on these ghost hunts/urban legends and lending his knowledge but I seem to be in a small faction there (but one that at least includes Misha ;))

Apparently Sera wants them to go the direction of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid this season...which I don't actually know what that means, but I'm sure I've heard Kripke or someone liken Dean and Sam to them before...

[the_ninth_bow]

Yeah, idk what the writers have been planning and what they haven't. I'd seriously need to go back and watch everything again to see if he was being deliberately evasive all season or if it was just a busy thing. I think for me, I remember feeling like Dean just wasn't understanding Cas was busy in Heaven, and so Cas was kinda of being short for that reason. But idk. I have to watch again. And now that you say it, it would have been SO interesting to see Cas reveal his deal earlier and for Dean and Cas to develop that fight over a long period of time. That would've been so much more effective, I think, and actually extremely interesting to watch... to see where the trust developed or dropped off. That could have been a big arch in the latter part of the season.

If anyone in this show deserves redemption, it's Cas. He's sacrificed so much, & all for the right choices, really. And even if his latest slip-up ended up with him trying to act as a new god, really, it's the souls and power talking, not him. I think he's just as much of a victim as everyone else, but he did what he thought he had to do to save everyone. So yes, he still deserves redemption. And YES to Dean doing something for Cas for once. He spewed out a bunch of pretty words in the last two episodes, but really, he hasn't acted on the fact that he thinks Cas is family. So I want him to stick with that instead of just being like "Oh, jk I lied." Which seems to be how the writers have been writing him a little. So I'm hoping they get their shit together and follow through with what Dean's speeches have been implying... that he considers Cas family, that he'd do anything for him. I mean, why put that stuff in if they don't use it?! It makes Dean a liar and a hypocrite and a dirty player if they don't have him stick to those promises.

And I saw Dean and Jo as more siblings, too :) Jo had a crush on Dean, yeah that was established, but Dean viewed Jo as a sister, which was ALSO established in canon. So issue solved lol.

Oh Cas-haters. For people who think Cas has served no purpose since s4, that's wrong. He played a large part in s5, and if he's been dropping off more, that's the writers' fault. And, maybe, a little bit of the "oh, it's the Dean and Sam show!" mentality that keeps him from making more of an appearance. You kind of shoot yourself in the foot with that one; Either let the characters develop on their own and appear more in the series, or else don't complain when you try to limit their screen time because you want other characters to show up on the screen more. And I don't think Cas comes between the brothers at all! If they're talking about s4, that was because of Ruby and Sam's walk down the dark side. That would have separated the brothers even if Cas wasn't in the show. In s5... a lot of whatever separation that was between them was because of Dean's issues and Sam being Lucifer's vessel, I think. In s6, what separation that might've been there was Sam being soulless and his run-in with grandpa Winchester vs Dean and his dip into domesticity. No Cas involved there at all. Cas gets along well with Sam, and Dean and Cas, well... when Dean's not being a douche, Cas's presence makes things easier for them (like in the Mommy Dearest episode). So idk what those people are thinking. They're just butthurt.

OMG I would LOVE to see Cas become human and have to deal with a hunter's life on the road and lending his knowledge to hunts. I WOULD LOVE IT SO MUCH. tbh, that's what I thought was going to happen at the end of this season, Cas would use up all his power or something fixing things, get sick of being an angel, and chose to become human. But... that was just wishful thinking maybe. Hopefully that'll happen. It would be so freakin' interesting and awesome.

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid... I've heard that, too, and yeah, Kripke's referred to Dean and Sam as them before. I've never seen the movie, but I think it's the idea of the last of the cowboys, or outlaws or something. I might have to watch the movie now, just to see, but who knows... maybe Sera's just saying stuff and it won't be anything like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, like this season wasn't very noire-ish :P