(Untitled)

[the_methotaku]

My church canceled services due to bad weather up in Upper, so I visited St. Mark's Lutheran Church in Delaware. This was my first time attending a Lutheran service. Some things were different then what I am used to in Episcopal or Methodist services- the confession of sin was the first part of the service proper, though they sung a hymn before

Comments

[logodaedaly]

Did they use the new ELW (red hymnal), With One Voice (small blue supplement), or LBW (green hymnal)? I've never known the historical reasons that the ELCA places the confession before the service (it's technically separate from the Divine Service). In the LCMS, it's part of the Divine Service. It's probably hard to tell from a regular Sunday service, but Lutheran liturgy in the US is actually a mix of East (Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom) and West (TLM). If you did the litany that starts, "In peace, let us pray to the Lord," that's from the Chrysostom Divine Liturgy.

Alb and stole is still the basic vesture of Lutheran pastors -- I don't know all that many who wear chasubles. If I saw one wearing a maniple, I'd really fall over

[the_methotaku]

The congregation used the old green Lutheran Book of Worship for the liturgy and two hymns, but used With One Voice for the opening hymn. Since they have a 'contemporary' service twice a month, I assume they use WOV more often then. The Eucharistic prayer was a short one with no epiclipsis (sp?).

One thing that surprised me was how much the service mentioned hell- the apostles creed said "he descended into hell" for instance. I could not say that line, and omitted it.

[logodaedaly]

I like the setting for Communion in WOV. I haven't had time to really sit down and explore ELW - I just went on the Augsburg Fortress site and ordered a copy. It's backordered. (I went ahead and ordered a copy of the new LCMS hymnal, too...should be interesting

[the_methotaku]

I believe in Sheol/Hades, and the lake of fire in Revelation, and in the Resurrection of the sheep and the goats. I thus have no problem with 'He descended to the dead'. Hell, however, is, in my view at this point, a confused conflation of Sheol and the Lake of Fire, and I don't believe in that.

I wonder if 'our' versus 'Him' is not about gender but about a view of the Eucharist as on God's sacrifice for us, versus a view of the Eucharist as our sacrifice to praise to God. That would explain why the ELCA and the Episcopalians have 'him' while the more protestant UMC and LCMS have 'our' even though the LCMS is much more conservative then the other three denominations.

I also wonder if all the hell-talk was put in to appease the LCMS.

[logodaedaly]

I wonder if 'our' versus 'Him' is not about gender but about a view of the Eucharist as on God's sacrifice for us, versus a view of the Eucharist as our sacrifice to praise to God. That would explain why the ELCA and the Episcopalians have 'him' while the more protestant UMC and LCMS have 'our' even though the LCMS is much more conservative then the other three denominations.

Well, the truth is both/and, though, so I don't really see that as a legitimate license for the "Him" instead of "our". And beyond that, I just really don't think the ELCA or LCMS liturgical committees have a very clear theology of the Eucharist. (Neither do Independent Catholics - once the missal is done, this is my next book project.)

I also wonder if all the hell-talk was put in to appease the LCMS.Enh, I doubt it. Lutheran unity involving the LCMS was dead long before the ELCA hymnal was released, back in 1969 when Oscar Harms lost re-election to the Synod's presidency and J.A.O. Preus came in and started the Seminex controversy

[the_methotaku]

Personally, I have no problem with masculine language for God, as I regard all God-language as metaphorical. The true God is beyond description.

Lutheran Eucharistic theology is a good deal clearer then Anglican or Methodist Eucharistic theology has historically been.

FWIW

[amaebi]

I never had any trouble with generic "man/he/him" until I read about a survey in which children drew male persons when those terms were used, and were about equally likely to draw women when gender-neautral terms were used. That has made me careful ever since, though it still makes no personal difference to me.

Re: FWIW

[the_methotaku]

In a youth group or college ministry setting, or a setting where most of my congregants were seekers or new converts, I would be more careful about the language I used for God then I am in my very traditional church.

[the_methotaku]

Point taken! Just because the ELCA and the LCMS are clearer on the Eucharist then United Methodists, Anglicans, and Episcopalians are doesn't mean that they are clear in any absolute sense!

[amaebi]

I tend to omit the uniqueness clauses when I'm faced with a creed. I am agnostic w/r/t hell, but I certainly like the idea of Christ helping people to heaven from it.

[amaebi]

Whoa, do you ever have the technical high church chops. I swoon in envy.

[logodaedaly]

Heh, this is what one gets for growing up high-ish church Lutheran and then becoming a Catholic priest.

That said, my knowledge pales in comparison to that of most serious Anglo-Catholics. I know some folks through my bishop who have likely forgotten more things about the liturgy than I'll ever learn.