sigh.

[taiki]

So I've been keeping up with the Penny Arcade Dickwolf debacle(See here Major Warning: Discusses rape).

Phil Plait once gave a talk on the tone argument in a skepticism context. You can find it here. He talks about Skepticism and how to turn people to the light. He brings up several basic questions. First off, what are you trying to

Comments

[dreaming_faerie]

Here's an idea - don't try to bring up the whole 'tone argument' bullshit as a way to dismiss and derail what's being said and done

[taiki]

Yes, and my question is, what has this accomplished?

[dreaming_faerie]

Educated people? Made people look at their view at humor and rape culture? Made PAX lose money by refunds and made PA lose readers by being assholes? Showed how the 'true fans' of PA are just a bunch of neckbeards?

Really, it's not that hard to see what it's accomplished so far.

[taiki]

By what metric? How much money has PA actually lost? Who's now on board with the whole rape culture paradigm that wasn't prior to this? This is a lot of navel gazing and I'm willing to bet PAX East and PAX Prime will still do very well. It is actually very difficult to see what gains, if any, have been made

[dr_teng]

Civility isn't necessary for any movement or even for education. Should the civil rights movement have been civil? Do you think it would have accomplished as much if it had? Pretty much a guarantee it wouldn't have

[taiki]

Civility isn't necessary for any movement or even for education. Should the civil rights movement have been civil? Do you think it would have accomplished as much if it had? Pretty much a guarantee it wouldn't have.

But it was. That was the corner stone of Martin Luther King's non-violence philosophy. It's why we remember him and instead of the numerous other civil rights leaders who advocated for more extreme measures and solutions.

"Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."

Less critique of the message and more thought about how to present the message (or your version of it) would be more effective. I've noticed that's something you do often on twitter, critique the message/people presenting the message. Yeah, I do it too, I think the democratic party are a bunch of corporate shits and leftism in America is

[dr_teng]

Non-violence doesn't imply civility. Nor does being angry imply one must hate one's opponents. You're linking things that aren't naturally linked with each other.

Boycotts and illegal actions (sit-ins and the like) aren't "civil". Breaking the law is pretty obviously not a civil action. Nor was the civil rights movement entirely MLK. I doubt you'll find many historians, aside from ones whitewashing it, that will ignore the contributions of more extremist members like Malcolm X.

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As for your second point, I'm not sure what you mean. Elaborate?

[taiki]

In the context of conversation and discourse, civility is a matter of how you deal with the opposition. Do you throw a trashcan through their window or do you sit outside and picket their doorstep? While yes, serious historians do remember extremist wings of the civil rights movement, the point I'm making is, who had more effect, Huey P. Newton or MLK?

What i meant on my second point was that people who are on this side of the debate often can't tell the difference between, "Your argument is crap" and "you are crap."

[dr_teng]

Many people would (and have) said that any illegal actions aren't civil. If you were a business owner and you had people protesting your business by occupying it, would you consider that civil? I find that unlikely. My point here is that civility isn't a requirement and never has been. Non-violence is an entirely different matter so linking the two really makes no sense

[dreaming_faerie]

Have you been reading comments? A lot of geek-central places, especially with feminist geeks or female geeks, have talked about getting refunds, not supporting the comic, and on spreading the word

[dreaming_faerie]

[taiki]

Please, let's not.

[taiki]

Please. let's not.

[taiki]

Have you been reading comments? A lot of geek-central places, especially with feminist geeks or female geeks, have talked about getting refunds, not supporting the comic, and on spreading the word.

The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

As I said before, people have tried to be nice to the creators before. They were civil. The creators didn't like it, mocked them, and profited from it like a bunch of little brats that didn't want to accept they did something wrong in some form or another. They could have easily said "We understand what you're saying and how it's harmful, but it wasn't the intention of the comic. We don't intend to stop with our type of humor, especially as it is what we're known for, but we do understand what you're saying."I'm not going to defend what they did. I don't know what they did. But when they shot back snark, maybe the right reaction wasn't to shoot back hate. Check their front page. Yes, they've given in, but Tycho is basically saying that he has no idea if dialogue is even possible. Which

[dreaming_faerie]

The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

You said this to say, what? Excuse my grammar.

I'm not going to defend what they did. I don't know what they did. But when they shot back snark, maybe the right reaction wasn't to shoot back hate. Check their front page. Yes, they've given in, but Tycho is basically saying that he has no idea if dialogue is even possible. Which is really. Really. Really. REALLY a damn. fucking. shame.

It really seems like you're defending what they did. You're using tone argument, a tactic that's used in many feminist (and poc) arguments to derail and dismiss the concerns of the one side.

Their apology is shit and forced at best. It's also sadly the only one we'll get. Mike only "apologized" after he and his family was threatened. When Courtney was threatened, he didn't stop his fans with their threats. He did give a respectful tone and as I said, it's still an apology. He told his fans to knock the fuck off. FinallyJerry, however, is dismissing that there is something called rape culture to begin