sigh.
So I've been keeping up with the Penny Arcade Dickwolf debacle(See here Major Warning: Discusses rape).
Phil Plait once gave a talk on the tone argument in a skepticism context. You can find it here. He talks about Skepticism and how to turn people to the light. He brings up several basic questions. First off, what are you trying to ( Read more... )
Phil Plait once gave a talk on the tone argument in a skepticism context. You can find it here. He talks about Skepticism and how to turn people to the light. He brings up several basic questions. First off, what are you trying to ( Read more... )
As I said before, people have tried to be nice to the creators before. They were civil. The creators didn't like it, mocked them, and profited from it like a bunch of little brats that didn't want to accept they did something wrong in some form or another. They could have easily said "We understand what you're saying and how it's harmful, but it wasn't the intention of the comic. We don't intend to stop with our type of humor, especially as it is what we're known for, but we do understand what you're saying."
We are not turning into a pissing contest on bad, dehumanizing pasts. I don't feel comfortable describing what I've survived. I'd like my 7th grade year back, where I wasn't called a 'nigger,' punched by boys, and made to feel like shit due to my race and interests. Neckbeard is problematic? I'm sorry that a bunch of privileged males, mostly white, are feeling so dehumanized, especially when they're teasing women with rape and trying to belittle and be condescending to them.
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The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
As I said before, people have tried to be nice to the creators before. They were civil. The creators didn't like it, mocked them, and profited from it like a bunch of little brats that didn't want to accept they did something wrong in some form or another. They could have easily said "We understand what you're saying and how it's harmful, but it wasn't the intention of the comic. We don't intend to stop with our type of humor, especially as it is what we're known for, but we do understand what you're saying."
I'm not going to defend what they did. I don't know what they did. But when they shot back snark, maybe the right reaction wasn't to shoot back hate. Check their front page. Yes, they've given in, but Tycho is basically saying that he has no idea if dialogue is even possible. Which is really. Really. Really. REALLY a damn. fucking. shame.
We are not turning into a pissing contest on bad, dehumanizing pasts. I don't feel comfortable describing what I've survived. I'd like my 7th grade year back, where I wasn't called a 'nigger,' punched by boys, and made to feel like shit due to my race and interests.
Nor should we. I opened up because I wanted you to understand where I was coming from. I often resonate the pain of others by reflecting it against my own internal prism. I open up in hopes that others see it similarly.
Neckbeard is problematic? I'm sorry that a bunch of privileged males, mostly white, are feeling so dehumanized, especially when they're teasing women with rape and trying to belittle and be condescending to them.
Yes.
Yes it is.
Why are you denying to others what you yourself want? Isn't that hypocrisy? I have to deal with racists, homophobes, heterosexists, and all sorts of people with horrible attributes, but to forget that they're people is an incredibly tragic repeating of horrible past history and prevents me from getting about in my day. I don't have the comfort of surrounding myself in a safe space when I go to work and I don't have the comfort of living in a safe space.
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You said this to say, what? Excuse my grammar.
I'm not going to defend what they did. I don't know what they did. But when they shot back snark, maybe the right reaction wasn't to shoot back hate. Check their front page. Yes, they've given in, but Tycho is basically saying that he has no idea if dialogue is even possible. Which is really. Really. Really. REALLY a damn. fucking. shame.
It really seems like you're defending what they did. You're using tone argument, a tactic that's used in many feminist (and poc) arguments to derail and dismiss the concerns of the one side.
Their apology is shit and forced at best. It's also sadly the only one we'll get. Mike only "apologized" after he and his family was threatened. When Courtney was threatened, he didn't stop his fans with their threats. He did give a respectful tone and as I said, it's still an apology. He told his fans to knock the fuck off. Finally.
Jerry, however, is dismissing that there is something called rape culture to begin with. A dialogue would be possible if he was willing to admit or be open to the possibility of how our society is one that endorses rape culture. I don't even know what the hell the paragraph on hormones had to do with anything. He did, as well, admit to reading and learning new things from all of this, but there was little to no apology in all of that.
Why are you denying to others what you yourself want? Isn't that hypocrisy? I have to deal with racists, homophobes, heterosexists, and all sorts of people with horrible attributes, but to forget that they're people is an incredibly tragic repeating of horrible past history and prevents me from getting about in my day. I don't have the comfort of surrounding myself in a safe space when I go to work and I don't have the comfort of living in a safe space.
I'm having a hard time seeing 'neckbeard,' a term applied to geeks, as problematic. From the same geeks that constantly use misogynistic language and act as such. I like how you find it problematic, but don't even acknowledge how such neckbeards have been acting to the other side. Being called a neckbeard is now the same as belittling and threatening women? Lol, ok.
Again, I'm not getting in a pissing contest on what's being dealt with. Who can surround themselves in safe space? Everyone has shit they deal with and crappy pasts, yes, but if you're in a line of work where you contribute a form of media to society, be expected to take criticism and opposing views. Address those views, don't mock them and be a total shit.
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Because it is not actually evident from what bloggers say what kind of impact this kind of activism has had on the larger gaming community as a whole. Where's the solid data proving this to be true?
You're using tone argument, a tactic that's used in many feminist (and poc) arguments to derail and dismiss the concerns of the one side.
Yes, because when I try to have that conversation about being a little aware of people around them, they've heard it before, except someone was yelling at them. Either in real life or on the internet.
Pardon me invoking the tone argument, but, the tone others use is making my life harder by making the nature of discourse that much more difficult due to people I've never even seen or heard from before.
Jerry, however, is dismissing that there is something called rape culture to begin with. A dialogue would be possible if he was willing to admit or be open to the possibility of how our society is one that endorses rape culture. I don't even know what the hell the paragraph on hormones had to do with anything. He did, as well, admit to reading and learning new things from all of this, but there was little to no apology in all of that.
Jerry's point is that the whole notion that we endorse a rape culture isn't up for debate and the lexicon used is full of thick, impenetrable academic jargon. The arguments are all built on sacred untouchable premises. It's nearly impossible to have dialogue under those circumstances.
I'm having a hard time seeing 'neckbeard,' a term applied to geeks, as problematic. From the same geeks that constantly use misogynistic language and act as such. I like how you find it problematic, but don't even acknowledge how such neckbeards have been acting to the other side. Being called a neckbeard is now the same as belittling and threatening women? Lol, ok.
Because being petty and belittling isn't going to achieve anything? Because the very thing you're fighting against, you're doing, even if it's to a much smaller degree?
Going 55 in a 35 isn't as bad as doing 120 in a 35. You still went noticeably over the line though.
Again, I'm not getting in a pissing contest on what's being dealt with. Who can surround themselves in safe space? Everyone has shit they deal with and crappy pasts, yes, but if you're in a line of work where you contribute a form of media to society, be expected to take criticism and opposing views. Address those views, don't mock them and be a total shit.
I'm not saying they don't have to take shit, I'm just saying maybe it's not always right to go nuclear. Maybe some fights aren't worth the time and the energy.
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Again from the example I used - if someone steps on your toes, don't expect them to be nice about it, especially if you give them an attitude. Maybe, if people are giving you 'tone,' it's because you are not understanding them while pretending that you do or you're being so thick-headed that you're dismissing their point. Or it could be you're being an ass and just letting things go in one ear and out the other.
Jerry's notion is that he doesn't want to believe in rape culture so he can keep making rape jokes. It's impossible to talk to someone who wants to put their fingers in their ears and go 'lalala.' It can be talked about and it clearly shows he didn't read or learn shit on rape culture.
But you're defending and supporting those that originally were being petty and belittling people. That's rich. I went over the line? You're acting like you're entitled to not be called out or called a name for being an asshole. You, a white, cis-gendered, hetero-assumed (You may be bi, but people assume you're hetero) male, is trying to play victim against a biracial female. In the geek community (Hell, in any community at all). That's real fucking rich.
Some fights are worth the time and energy. If people just choose to stay quiet, then shit wouldn't change at all. Voices wouldn't be heard. Sometimes you need to voice out, even if its 'going nuclear,' against some assholes who think they're in the right to mock the people that tried to educate them. Others will hear and learn then.
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I ask for proof of efficacy of the methodology used by social justice advocates, you don't have it, and I'm the bad guy?
Jerry's notion is that he doesn't want to believe in rape culture so he can keep making rape jokes.
How did you derive this from what he said? What he said was, quote, The perspectives in play, the lenses, are too different: one side believes that not according the issue of rape the proper respect fuels a kind of perverse, perpetual engine called rape culture. There is a vast, specific lexicon and hundreds of tacit assumptions that gird it. The other side (that’s me, but not just me) believes that when it comes to expression nothing is off the table. It is the creator’s prerogative to create something - even something grotesque - out of anything they can find.
You're acting like you're entitled to not be called out or called a name for being an asshole.
Yes. Exactly. Because that's horribly childish to start talking about what a person is, rather than what they're discussing. This is the adhominem fallacy actually at work.
But you're defending and supporting those that originally were being petty and belittling people. That's rich. I went over the line? You're acting like you're entitled to not be called out or called a name for being an asshole. You, a white, cis-gendered, hetero-assumed (You may be bi, but people assume you're hetero) male, is trying to play victim against a biracial female. In the geek community (Hell, in any community at all). That's real fucking rich.
I have done no such thing. I have never said what they have done is right, I have never come to their defense. What I am saying is that the other side is very wrong, and that is independent of whether or not what Jerry and Mike did was right. However, Jerry's comments that discussion is pretty impossible kind of back up what I'm saying so I'm citing his commentary as to what happens considering the mechanism at play. Input A gets Output B. I'm pointing at Output B and saying this is wrong.
You also assume I am white. I am not. I am half asian(With long hair and a hispanic last name, so people don't know whether I'm Japanese, Mexican or Native American). You also assume that I am cisgendered acting. I am not. Not by a goddamned long shot.
Your whole 'tone argument' thing is bullshit. Right from the start, you're dismissing and derailing the initial argument.
EVEN IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE FUCKING TONE CARD IT WOULDN'T WORK.
People were civil at first. As I said and in the timeline THAT YOU POSTED, it showed bloggers objecting to the comic. People explained why. People tweeted Gabe and Tycho (especially Gabe) and told them what was wrong and tried to educate them. They were 'civil' and 'nice.'
I know you're done with the thread, but I have a simple question. This is a question that has come from a community where the stakes of activism are pretty high.
Have you ever been convinced when someone throws that much hostility towards you? Shakesville and other blogs are perpetually at 11. I'm not thoroughly convinced that all they received was 'nice'. Being civil is not throwing a trashcan through the window. You can protest and still be civil.
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Your whole 'tone argument' thing is bullshit. Right from the start, you're dismissing and derailing the initial argument.
EVEN IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE FUCKING TONE CARD IT WOULDN'T WORK.
People were civil at first. As I said and in the timeline THAT YOU POSTED, it showed bloggers objecting to the comic. People explained why. People tweeted Gabe and Tycho (especially Gabe) and told them what was wrong and tried to educate them. They were 'civil' and 'nice.'
Then Gabe and Tycho made a comic where they mock the victims, then made a post about mocking trigger warnings, then mocked and trolled everyone as they made shirts AND PROFITTED IT FROM THIS. They made money so the rest of their troll readers could buy and support them.
There was outrage, but it died down. Someone did make a 'rape survivor' shirt, but all profit went to a charity.
The only reason there was outrage now was because they took down the shirts, said they wanted PAX East to be a place of tolerance, then in the same breath Gabe (I'm still going to use 'they') said he was going to wear the shirt to PAX and allowed others to do so.
Then they create a half-assed, shitty apology. Not because the issue needed to ended, not to call off their fans from threatening anyone that opposed with rape and death threats, or to tell 'teamrape' to stop, but only that everyone should stop because their wives and children were being threatened. Threats to everyone else that acted civil? Okay! Threats against our wives and kids? Only if we draw em first!
That's really when the shit hit the fan. Yes, there are other factors into this, but these are the main points. This is why people are angry. They have a damn right to be angry. The only people going 'nuclear' are the ones trolling anyone that dares to oppose their favorite webcomic creators and those that are being told 'you're wrong' or 'play nice.'
In the end, I'm done. You're extremely hard-headed and you're not listening at all. You're constantly trying to find ways to prove that you're entitled to call out victims and people that disagree, that you should be offended for being called a 'neckbeard,' that you should keep harping on 'civility' when the other side clearly doesn't want to be civil.
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