My quibble is with the Supernatural!Math section, and only with part B. Not to mess with your reasoning, but for my part there's more to it. Maybe it's only in my head, but there's definitely more to it thanB) Sam did not have a soul and thought of emotions as weakness. He used pure logic and reason to justify his actions. It made him ruthless, deadly, and unable to discern between right and wrong.
Something like this:
Sam did not have a soul. But Sam did not know he did not have a soul for quite a while. And there was a progression, defintely, a progression. Stage 1: Sam comes back (sans soul), looks in the window at Dean and his new family, and thinks, "....."
What? What did he think? "I don't care about him?" ??? Really???? Why not knock on the door? If you have no soul, why care what your arrival will do, that it will destroy Dean's chance for a family? Why care?
Stage 2: Dean becomes the target of the djinn. Was it Samuel who sent Sam to save him? Or did Sam just go?
Why? Why save Dean, if you have no soul? Why does it matter? Because right them, when Sam went in, there was no reason to think it would provide a lead to the djinns. It was Dean who made that come about. Why save Dean?
Stage 3: Revealed, Sam's alive. Dean at first expresses his intention to leave Lisa and Ben and join Sam and the Campbells and hunt. Then he changes his mind. Sam is... disappointed.
Why? If you have no soul, why do you care whether Dean hunts or stays in suburbia? This one has an answer, because Sam gave one. It's just better with you, Dean."
Why? Why???
I don't think Sam knew why himself not really, but what he did know what it was better with Dean. Did he feel something? How would that even be possible?
However, it's inarguable. It did matter.
Stage 4: Dean goes back to Lisa. Not acceptable. The baby shifter provided the clever Soulless man a way to get Dean to come play.
Dean, however, senses something is off with Sam (even though Sam had some very wise words to say about Dean and being a father and how did he do that, again, with no soul?). Dean is wary. Sam realizes he has to try and behave more like Dean expects, or Dean will not stick around. So he tries.
Why? Why does the Soulless man try to behave as Dean is expecting? Why does he lie? Because if he is truthful, Dean might ditch and that's not okay.
Why? Why???? Why does Sam care if Dean goes back to Lisa and Ben?
Stage 5: Outed! Sam screws up royally by letting Dean get turned. It was a lgical move, and he *knew* Dean could handle it, and *knew* there was an antidote. But sure enough, the straights supposedly soulled folks, Samuel and Dean, seemed to have a problem with it. And Dean is now watching. Then Veritas blows his cover completely. (Bitch. Dean was just about to figure out his own way to buy it.)
After the serious beat down, Dean calls Castiel and the angel sticks his arm up in there and discovers, hey! No soul! Okay well that explains a few things. But why is everyone so freaked out about it?
Nevertheless, the no soul thing really doesn't seem like a good thing. And there are reasons why it might not be. Dean pointed out that Sam was lacking in the instincts department and this hypothesis was born out by Samuel being Crowley's bitch. So, maybe lack of soul is an impairment. Okay, then let's get the soul back. It would make Dean feel better, and possible improve Sam's people reading abilities. All good, right?
And being outed, no more need to pretend, so, all good.
Why? Because Dean wants it. Also there seem to be benefits. But Dean wants it. Fine. We do it.
Why? Who cares what Dean wants? Or whether Dean stays?
Stage 6: Living Outed. All good. No need to pretend, plus Dean's willing to provide guidance and mentoring. Cool.
Except, not all good: Dean says he wants the truth, but then says no, Sam needs to fake it until he makes it. Confusing much? Also, aforementioned mentoring reveals that having a soul means no sex with hippie chicks, and pain and misery. Now wait a minute...
Then it turns out that both trusted angel buddy and not trusted demons agree the soul is going to be damaged beyond repair, and will turn Sam into a mental vegetable. This is Not a Good Thing.
Attempts made to reason with Dean about this are pretty much brushed off and ignored.
Stage 7: Self preservation.
Already way too long but you get the idea. The definition of Soulless Sam that we ended up with was an evolution. And there was a period during that evolution when inexplicable things were happening. In the end, Soulless Sam decided he was better off, but the unexplained things are still unexplained.
When Soulless Sam faced off with Sam in his head, he obviously saw no point in having a soul, but it never came up, what he thought about Dean. What he intended to do it he won the fight and took over the boat.
I loved the outcome, it was perfect, but the inexplicable things still have no explanation. Unless Sam wasn't empty of a soul so much as undeveloped. But that's another story.
Oh, I agree. It was more of a general statement reflecting what we saw of his behavior when left on his own, such as in the missing year, and not really so much where Dean was concerned.
After all - all THREE of them, Lucifer, Cas, and Sam, act differently where Dean is concerned. ;)
Another 'why' in there - or a 'huh, wow', is Soulless!Sam telling Bobby that Dean didn't care about 'him', he just wanted his little brother back. Like, not only did S!S want to live because he perceived himself as a separate person from Sam, but he *wanted Dean to want him there*, too.
It very much feels to me like he's struggling with things he doesn't have the equipment (soul) to understand, and yet he just... almost... seems to be... reaching for it...
What? What did he think? "I don't care about him?" ??? Really???? Why not knock on the door? If you have no soul, why care what your arrival will do, that it will destroy Dean's chance for a family? Why care?
Flashback!Soulless!Sam in "Unforgiven" told us what he was thinking: Family just slows you down. He knew how Dean would react to having his brother back. He also knew that Dean now had a family, and that would slow Dean--and therefore Sam--down. Saying that Dean finally had what he wanted was a convenient excuse to tell everyone, but really, soulless!Sam told us a couple of times that he saw Dean as a liability. (He even told Dean that at one point.) He kept Dean out of it until Dean became a quantifiable asset--a partner to give him some balance (Soulless knew something wasn't right), and to be used as a commodity (letting him get turned in order to get a man inside the vamp nest).
Yeah, Soulless wanted Dean along, but it was for his own (Soulless's) purposes. It certainly didn't have much--if anything--to do with actually caring about Dean.
And it continues thusly through the soulless arc. Sam appears to care, but in reality, he only cares inasmuch as "caring" serves his own purposes. I compare it to the Nietzscheans on Andromeda: if you want an Nietzschean on your side, you have to make sure that whatever is in your best interest is also in his best interest. Because a Nietzschean will always act in his own best interest. Same thing with soulless!Sam. No empathy, no conscience, no instinct, only acting in his own best interest. If something serves him well, he uses it. If something does not, he ignores it, ditches it, or eliminates it.
We see that contrast when Sam gets his soul back. After the re-soulling, he takes an active approach in pulling Dean out of danger, of making sure Dean is safe to the best of his ability, of making sure that Dean knows Sam is there for him, backing him up, both in a fight and emotionally.
I never said, actually, that Soulless Sam "cared" about Dean. However, I don't think "Dean is now an asset" really explains everything Sam did to get Dean to hunt again. It doesn't explain why Sam went after Dean after Dean had already been poisoned a second time, with a double dose. By Soulless Sam logic, Dean would have been unlikely to still be alive, antidote or no.
I don't suggest that Sam had warm fuzzy feelings. However what I see in a number of places in the early episodes is that Sam is puzzled by his own reactions.
Yes, in Unforgiven, he says family slows you down, but I think this is before he has actually connected with Dean, face to face. Once that happens, I think Sam finds himself reacting in ways he doesn't really understand.
A partner to give him some balance you said. Yes, but that also suggests the question, how does Sam know he needs balance? (Soulless knew something wasn't right) you say, but why "not right", as opposed to "not the same"?
I understand that Sam had self interested reasons for having Dean around and wanting to keep him around, but he went to a great deal of effort to hang on to Dean. I don't romanticize it, I don't imagine the love and caring he can't experience without his soul. But I do see something there which does not completely fit into the calculating logic and self interest.
My favorite part was the Sam!logic section. :)
My quibble is with the Supernatural!Math section, and only with part B. Not to mess with your reasoning, but for my part there's more to it. Maybe it's only in my head, but there's definitely more to it thanB) Sam did not have a soul and thought of emotions as weakness. He used pure logic and reason to justify his actions. It made him ruthless, deadly, and unable to discern between right and wrong.
Something like this:
Sam did not have a soul. But Sam did not know he did not have a soul for quite a while. And there was a progression, defintely, a progression.
Stage 1: Sam comes back (sans soul), looks in the window at Dean and his new family, and thinks, "....."
What? What did he think? "I don't care about him?" ??? Really????
Why not knock on the door? If you have no soul, why care what your arrival will do, that it will destroy Dean's chance for a family? Why care?
Stage 2: Dean becomes the target of the djinn. Was it Samuel who sent Sam to save him? Or did Sam just go?
Why? Why save Dean, if you have no soul? Why does it matter? Because right them, when Sam went in, there was no reason to think it would provide a lead to the djinns. It was Dean who made that come about. Why save Dean?
Stage 3: Revealed, Sam's alive. Dean at first expresses his intention to leave Lisa and Ben and join Sam and the Campbells and hunt. Then he changes his mind. Sam is... disappointed.
Why? If you have no soul, why do you care whether Dean hunts or stays in suburbia? This one has an answer, because Sam gave one. It's just better with you, Dean."
Why? Why???
I don't think Sam knew why himself not really, but what he did know what it was better with Dean. Did he feel something? How would that even be possible?
However, it's inarguable. It did matter.
Stage 4: Dean goes back to Lisa. Not acceptable. The baby shifter provided the clever Soulless man a way to get Dean to come play.
Dean, however, senses something is off with Sam (even though Sam had some very wise words to say about Dean and being a father and how did he do that, again, with no soul?). Dean is wary. Sam realizes he has to try and behave more like Dean expects, or Dean will not stick around. So he tries.
Why? Why does the Soulless man try to behave as Dean is expecting? Why does he lie? Because if he is truthful, Dean might ditch and that's not okay.
Why? Why???? Why does Sam care if Dean goes back to Lisa and Ben?
Stage 5: Outed! Sam screws up royally by letting Dean get turned. It was a lgical move, and he *knew* Dean could handle it, and *knew* there was an antidote. But sure enough, the straights supposedly soulled folks, Samuel and Dean, seemed to have a problem with it. And Dean is now watching. Then Veritas blows his cover completely. (Bitch. Dean was just about to figure out his own way to buy it.)
After the serious beat down, Dean calls Castiel and the angel sticks his arm up in there and discovers, hey! No soul! Okay well that explains a few things. But why is everyone so freaked out about it?
Nevertheless, the no soul thing really doesn't seem like a good thing. And there are reasons why it might not be. Dean pointed out that Sam was lacking in the instincts department and this hypothesis was born out by Samuel being Crowley's bitch. So, maybe lack of soul is an impairment. Okay, then let's get the soul back. It would make Dean feel better, and possible improve Sam's people reading abilities. All good, right?
And being outed, no more need to pretend, so, all good.
Why? Because Dean wants it. Also there seem to be benefits. But Dean wants it. Fine. We do it.
Why? Who cares what Dean wants? Or whether Dean stays?
Sam does.
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Except, not all good: Dean says he wants the truth, but then says no, Sam needs to fake it until he makes it. Confusing much? Also, aforementioned mentoring reveals that having a soul means no sex with hippie chicks, and pain and misery. Now wait a minute...
Then it turns out that both trusted angel buddy and not trusted demons agree the soul is going to be damaged beyond repair, and will turn Sam into a mental vegetable. This is Not a Good Thing.
Attempts made to reason with Dean about this are pretty much brushed off and ignored.
Stage 7: Self preservation.
Already way too long but you get the idea. The definition of Soulless Sam that we ended up with was an evolution. And there was a period during that evolution when inexplicable things were happening. In the end, Soulless Sam decided he was better off, but the unexplained things are still unexplained.
When Soulless Sam faced off with Sam in his head, he obviously saw no point in having a soul, but it never came up, what he thought about Dean. What he intended to do it he won the fight and took over the boat.
I loved the outcome, it was perfect, but the inexplicable things still have no explanation. Unless Sam wasn't empty of a soul so much as undeveloped. But that's another story.
<3
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After all - all THREE of them, Lucifer, Cas, and Sam, act differently where Dean is concerned. ;)
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But Sam has dibs. ;)
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;D
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One must always use Lolcats for Lolcas, yes yes?
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Which kind of breaks your heart.
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Course I might be crazy. ;)
<3333
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What? What did he think? "I don't care about him?" ??? Really????
Why not knock on the door? If you have no soul, why care what your arrival will do, that it will destroy Dean's chance for a family? Why care?
Flashback!Soulless!Sam in "Unforgiven" told us what he was thinking: Family just slows you down. He knew how Dean would react to having his brother back. He also knew that Dean now had a family, and that would slow Dean--and therefore Sam--down. Saying that Dean finally had what he wanted was a convenient excuse to tell everyone, but really, soulless!Sam told us a couple of times that he saw Dean as a liability. (He even told Dean that at one point.) He kept Dean out of it until Dean became a quantifiable asset--a partner to give him some balance (Soulless knew something wasn't right), and to be used as a commodity (letting him get turned in order to get a man inside the vamp nest).
Yeah, Soulless wanted Dean along, but it was for his own (Soulless's) purposes. It certainly didn't have much--if anything--to do with actually caring about Dean.
And it continues thusly through the soulless arc. Sam appears to care, but in reality, he only cares inasmuch as "caring" serves his own purposes. I compare it to the Nietzscheans on Andromeda: if you want an Nietzschean on your side, you have to make sure that whatever is in your best interest is also in his best interest. Because a Nietzschean will always act in his own best interest. Same thing with soulless!Sam. No empathy, no conscience, no instinct, only acting in his own best interest. If something serves him well, he uses it. If something does not, he ignores it, ditches it, or eliminates it.
We see that contrast when Sam gets his soul back. After the re-soulling, he takes an active approach in pulling Dean out of danger, of making sure Dean is safe to the best of his ability, of making sure that Dean knows Sam is there for him, backing him up, both in a fight and emotionally.
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I never said, actually, that Soulless Sam "cared" about Dean. However, I don't think "Dean is now an asset" really explains everything Sam did to get Dean to hunt again. It doesn't explain why Sam went after Dean after Dean had already been poisoned a second time, with a double dose. By Soulless Sam logic, Dean would have been unlikely to still be alive, antidote or no.
I don't suggest that Sam had warm fuzzy feelings. However what I see in a number of places in the early episodes is that Sam is puzzled by his own reactions.
Yes, in Unforgiven, he says family slows you down, but I think this is before he has actually connected with Dean, face to face. Once that happens, I think Sam finds himself reacting in ways he doesn't really understand.
A partner to give him some balance you said. Yes, but that also suggests the question, how does Sam know he needs balance? (Soulless knew something wasn't right) you say, but why "not right", as opposed to "not the same"?
I understand that Sam had self interested reasons for having Dean around and wanting to keep him around, but he went to a great deal of effort to hang on to Dean. I don't romanticize it, I don't imagine the love and caring he can't experience without his soul. But I do see something there which does not completely fit into the calculating logic and self interest.
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