The Epic Facebook Thread about God Continues
Andrew Bush If Jesus was supposed to die, then Judas should be a hero of the Bible. A tool of God.
Stephen Hill
If you say that, then you negate mankinds free will....
Yesterday at 1:40pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, I think from a Christian perspective, you do negate it. I don't think from a Christian perspective...or at least I try not to. There is no free will under an all-knowing God.
Yesterday at 1:43pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Plus, if you talk about "God's Plan" at any point...you are negating man's free will.
Yesterday at 1:46pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
Not true... Just because he is all-knowing doesn't mean there is no free will. Example -- I can order any beer I want from Taco Mac, but everyone I hang out with knows I am going to immediately start with a Blue Moon. Now, I could pic any of 350+ beers, but everyone I was with knew I was going to pick the Blue Moon.... Just because God is all-knowing, doesn't mean we are treated like puppets. He created us -- He knows what we are destined to become if we make the right decisions.
Yesterday at 1:49pm · Delete
David Pack
wtf?
Yesterday at 1:50pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
I think your argument is fundamentally flawed because you are trying to equate an omnipotent being with your friends who know you well. Knowing a person well and being omnipotent are two totally different things. The point of what I'm trying to say is that if a being is omnipotent that makes him/her/it automatically responsible for EVERYTHING. It's... Read More that being's fault for EVERYTHING. Being Creator and omnipotent negates the free will of man...from God's perspective. After all, if he's the creator and He created your personality as well...he definitely had a hand in your choosing of that Blue Moon.
Yesterday at 1:59pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
If you say God didn't create your personality then you are saying that people's personalities are left outside the realm of this omnipotent omnipresent being...thus making this being NOT omnipresent because it has nothing to do with our personalities or souls or whatever you want to call it.
Yesterday at 2:00pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
and speaking of free will and God. What kind of free will is it when you have a man (God) holding a gun (Hell) at your back the whole time you're alive. Do this or die. How is that free will? Sure you can choose to live or die...but being put in that position for your whole life...is fucking nuts.
Yesterday at 2:02pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
You were basically FORCED to choose "live" (Heaven/God)in that sense. Thus canceling out the whole notion of free will in the first place. The idea of Heaven and Hell/God and Satan ALSO destroy free will....let alone this Judas story.
Yesterday at 2:03pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
If this is the only flaw you've found in the logic of Christianity, you need to do more research.
Yesterday at 2:08pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Ha! No, there's a lot I'm aware of. This is just the debate of the day. Thanks for the comment.
Yesterday at 2:09pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
All religion is based on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few. "Do what I say or I'll hurt you!"
Yesterday at 2:11pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
That's basically it. I actually have that quote on the Favorite Quotes part of my Facebook profile.
Yesterday at 2:12pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
Yeah, Stendhal wrote some great stuff. I also like "“Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men” by Voltaire, though I guess it doesn't really relate to this discussion. Ahem.
Yesterday at 2:16pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
I just thought, I'd say I'm sorry to Drew Schroder and to Andrew Bush. I'm sorry for the Christians of the past and the Christians of the future. Their intolerance and their religion have been the blame (justly and injustly) for harm that has been done to this world. I do, however, believe that there are people who do have a strong faith in ... Read MoreChristianity who are working/striving to change some of the religious practices and the intolerance that has caused sufferage in the lives of others. I believe that one of the biggest parts of living a Christian life is to be or become tolerant of the condition of man to build relationships. Not necessarily to convert, but to bring a bit of the Kingdom of Heaven to earth for those in need.
P.S. I have often pondered a bit of the same. The only stance that I can truly take on it, and I am nearly man so my stance is a bit shaky, is that Judas came to the Elders and the high priests of the church at that time. He gave them the silver he had been
Yesterday at 4:13pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, I think that's all well and good but I'm just pointing out some fundamental problems with Christianity...not just the way it's perceived but what it actually says. I think there's a lot of things that need to be considered more deeply.
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
paid (well dropped it on the ground when they wouldn't accept it) and expressed that he had betrayed Jesus. He stated that Jesus was innocent. The only thing I see wrong with this picture, is that before the man hung himself - if he wanted to make right with God - he probably should have told Him that, and not the high priests. Who's to say he's ... Read Morenot a hero of the bible? I think that the reason why suicide is considered a "sin" is because, it's kind of like telling God you know timing better than He. If I was God, I probably wouldn't like that too much, either. But, the whole world was "sinning" (telling God they as humans knew better than He), that's kind of why Jesus was up on the cross to begin with. So - in my eyes - it sucks Judas killed himself, but He was needed in the story, and I'm kind of thankful he turned Jesus in. He would have been murdered regardless - all the rest of the disciples were.
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, I take a couple of issues with what you're saying. You're automatically viewing this entire story as true. Plus, you apparently believe in sin. I think things can be bad and good...moral and immoral without any kind of god. The problem with a lot of people I find is that they can't think outside of the box on this issue. It really shows when ... Read Morethey ask "Do you believe in God?" And my response could be "Which God?" The only way these people asking this question think of God is that of Jehovah. I think it shows the box they are thinking in. But the fact still remains...like Stephen pointed out...if there's a Divine Plan...then there is no free will. If God created EVERYTHING...wouldn't this include your personality and all the situations and events that occur on Earth (and elsewhere, I'd imagine) ?? This means that there is NO free will under this system...if you believe all these things.
This is another tangent but...
is God a miracle-maker if one guy survives a plane crash? ...
Yesterday at 4:26pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Or that plane that landed on the Hudson? People will say that "God was with that pilot." But who's the one that allowed for that even to occur in the first place...if you're thinking about an omnipresent God? The only argument at this point would be that God was just testing everyone's faith...but NO ONE will say that and/or probably NO ONE thinks ... Read Moreof it in that way. It's the classic case of seeing God as being something that does all the good and none of the bad when ....under this system of Christianity it's very much the opposite. Again, I'm arguing from inside the box.
Yesterday at 4:28pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
It's like people just don't think that God really is (under this system of belief) ALLOWING or MAKING all these events occur. You can't say that God is omnipresent and then say "God was with somebody." Like if someone is born with AIDS...you HAVE to say that God allowed for that to happen. If not, God is NOT omnipresent....if God is who you're ... Read Moresaying he is. The fact of suffering in the world is one of the main causes people leave Christianity and religion. It's unaccounted for with religion. You don't even have to think about science ...or argue from that perspective at this point.
Yesterday at 4:33pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
I was restating the orginal intent of the argument. Who ever said that Judas wasn't a hero of the bible?
Yesterday at 4:43pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Oh, well, I'm sure lots of people do. I was just trying to show a different perspective on the story. Even in colloquial speech, "Judas" can be synonymous with "traitor." If you don't think so, that's fine...but I was mainly aiming at the general audience...not one particular person. If you think my assessment of the "general" is not correct, then I guess that'd be something to talk about.
Yesterday at 4:46pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
Indeed, many Christians believe that when a miracle occurs, "it is God's will!", but when tragedy strikes, "he moves in mysterious ways". One could answer with ""Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Yesterday at 5:01pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
Well done, my friend. I like your debatables. I haven't taken the automatic belief much in my life, and it's interesting to have come to a belief in what so many people from the South believe to be the automatic approach in theology. My main focus is not necessarily theology, but I like to study others belief systems. Omnipresent doesn't ... Read Morenecessarily mean that He MAKES bad things (or what people consider to be bad things) happen, it does however mean that he is always there when it does happen. I do think God allows bad things to happen - sometimes i believe people ask for it. Like, I don't care for an attachment to some things because they cause me a wax and wane of emotions. When these things are taken from me, I am left soley to rely on God to provide for me, and then I begin to wonder why there is so much suffering in my life. I blame God, but not in a negative way. I appreciate the detachment from these things, as it decreases my suffering here. Both view points are selfish.
Yesterday at 5:07pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
I don't mean to sound rude, but is English your native language, Liberty? Your last post was less than articulate; I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. It certainly wasn't a counter point to my post.
Yesterday at 5:22pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
There was no way to respond to your box of questions that occured before my preivous statement. I was simply stating that I appreciated Andrew's questions, as they tend to make me think outside the box. I'm sorry that you didn't understand the last few sentences of my response. Maybe someday you will. I didn't care to go back and correct simple ... Read Moregrammatical mistakes. Have fun deciphering it, as I would have had fun trying to find a loophole in your square list of questions above. Ever read anything by Richard Dawkins, or books about John Dewey or E.V. Naicker? If you haven't already found them all; I'm sure you could find some more questions for that list in something of that sort.
Yesterday at 5:42pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, basically, it goes like .... the arguments dealing with suffering go against the Christian idea of God and any religions that are similar. It does not go against the idea of "God" in general, I would suppose. This limits the suffering and "free will" argument to just Jehovah and similar gods. The Deist idea of god could not be affected by ... Read Morethis kind of argumentation. However, when we get into this realm, you leave the suffering argument and move into science and ...reasoning realm. It becomes a question of science where the Big Bang starts to sound really natural and not supernatural...and quantum physics and the theory of everything that can really go against any real idea of god. And the reasoning side...where you can argue that god is possible...but it still has nothing to say about how probable it/he/she is. The flying spaghetti monster and the teacup orbiting Jupiter argument come to mind.
Yesterday at 6:15pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
This whole argument about god really has, in this Facebook thread, been revealed to me that it's really two-fold. One side is attacking one god, Jehovah, and the other is attacking any idea of god at all.
Yesterday at 6:15pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Sir, do not accuse me of that. I have studied and still do study the Bible. It may sound like I do not because of the way I'm talking about but I think that's because you've probably neve heard or read about these views before. I rest my case since you said it was about turn or burn. Even if I believed that that god was real...no thank you. That's fucked morality. I want no part of it. Again I am arguing ad if these things are true. It's just for the sake of argument.
Yesterday at 10:24pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
If god told me to kill someone I'd say look you got the wrong guy. I don't do that shit.
Yesterday at 10:25pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
And I don't believe there are no consequences. I think morals and consequences exist without any kind of divine law. Don't jump to that conclusion about me.
Yesterday at 10:27pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
You have a twisted view of who God is and what hell is -- sorry we didn't finish this last night, but I have a little medical condition that had to be tended to --
I may not hit these in order, but I will at least try to hit them all --
We have free will, like I said last night. Yes, no matter how you put it, it seems that we don't have a truly free will -- and yet, at the same time you're leaving anything but a life of free will when you spend so much time arguing the concept of God being some sort of tyrannical being. (Which is what you are doing in your arguments) God doesn't hold a gun to our backs -- he gives us a choice (duh) you can choose hell or you can choose life. Understand that from a standpoint of creationism we were created solely for the pleasure of the heavenly father -- hence the reason prior to the fall of man the bible refers to Adam and God walking together in the cool of the evening. ... Read More
Think about how you would feel as a creator -- if you had that ability --
Yesterday at 9:56pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Personally I feel like that's all myth. The Adam and Eve story has no basis in reality. The point is that God could change the way things are. We COULD have free will and NO hell...but it's not that way. I suppose you could say that God loves us so he invented Hell...but why would he invent human nature to the point where we NEED Hell to "... Read Morestraighten up" or...scare us into following him. This I do not understand. Again, there is no choice when it's heaven or hell...you think anyone really chooses hell? People just give up on the idea altogether. People don't really choose hell...they just stop believing in it. I do think that if this God did exist, he would be tyrannical. Having power to help someone but not doing it is tyrannical.
Yesterday at 10:02pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
would it be fulfilling to you to have your creation love you only out of fear -- or would you let them make a choice? On top of that, would you reward your creation for despising you and cursing your name? I think not. God doesn't hold a gun to our backs, he gives us a choice. Standing on the outside, people don't see where the choice is, or where ... Read Morethe love is, or even how sane the whole idea is. All people on the outside see is their pride and arrogance. They can't see what God's love is and if you don't first understand what love is and what God's love is, then the rest is pointless. You have a choice to make in your own life, I assume from this post and previous ones, you have made it, and I'm sorry if that's the case. But we have NEVER been forced to choose anything by God -- thats why there is a heaven and hell -- proof that we have a choice.
Yesterday at 10:02pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
You're exercising your free will now by openly despising the God that created you. Now, tell me you still don't believe you have free will.
Yesterday at 10:04pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
But that's exactly what God does in your eyes. It basically is turn or burn....on a very base level. If there was no Hell, why would I need Jesus.....why would I need God? ....seriously...
Yesterday at 10:04pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
No, ...again, I'm arguing from inside of the box...the box being Christian doctrine/dogma. My idea of free will is a little different. I'm basically arguing against the idea of free in the Christian system....that way of thinking...that box...
Yesterday at 10:06pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
If you want to look at it on a base level, ok -- turn or burn. I don't see it that way. I see God as being jealous of what He created. There's nothing wrong with the creator of the universe being jealous of His creation. He has every right to give us a choice -- we can choose to do our own thing -- we burn. or, we can choose to love him -- and ... Read Morecontrary to what you may think or believe that doesn't mean you become some whacked out, non-drinking, crappy music listening, loud mouth loon that walks the streets yelling the end is near. No, it's not that at all. It's actually hope, and love you can't get anywhere else. It's peace when your father gets hit by a car, or when you find out your liver is dying. Maybe if your family loses everything they have, it gives you hope... There is only a dogmatic box of you're too shallow to realize the one place there is no box is at the foot of Jesus. Cliche sounding, yes. But truthful none the less.
Yesterday at 10:13pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
Your idea of free will is more like moral relativism -- you can do whatever you want with no consequences. I would be careful of discussing christian doctrine/dogma if you haven't taken the time to study what the bible and the writings it came from really say. Over the years there have been A LOT of people that have distorted the truth of Christianity and what the Bible says. Don't take another man's word -- look at it yourself you big free-thinker...
Yesterday at 10:17pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
I replied on another thread but you still should have gotten the response in e-mail since you're a part of that one too. At any rate, thanks for the conversation.
Yesterday at 10:57pm · Delete
Tomo Tojo
Might be and might not be off topic but... what is personality anyway. There's no absolute "self"... we all define each other, and even differently. You can look arrogant to one person and compassionate to another. The only absolute existence is our physical body, which is just a part of the natural world.
You don't need to believe in God to exist... Read More... and we do not need to be special, compared to other creatures in the world. I understand if people just "need" God.
Saying that the world (with different people in different cultures) is chaotic because God let us chose to be so is, to me, sounding exactly the same as saying that you can't explain anything. Why do you still need God then? To satisfy your teleological need, eh?
9 hours ago · Delete
BenJammin Redden ॐ
God is bigger than any sectarian boundaries. You're thinking of Him in terms of Christianity. You can't dismiss the absence of an elephant's body because you only see one of his legs.
5 hours ago · Delete
Tomo Tojo
I don't exactly get what the comment above is trying to say, and don't even know if it was for me, but ... Yes and God(s) was/were not, and still is/are not, in some cultures, the object to have faith in, for his salvation, and to follow in some cultures. I am skeptical about any God that leads people to exclude other people/creatures, by "giving them free-will"...
2 hours ago · Delete
Tomo Tojo
Why do you need human-like symbolic "existence" that you don't even know exist...? And why did he need to "create" everything? It might be the piece of wood in front of you... I feel like people have been too weak to be patiently keep asking the origin of the world, so they needed someone to justify their weakness. Do not think/pretend like you can... Read More get the answer (already prepared) so easily. Keep doubting. If you need something to have faith in, to be happy, then say so... it's alright. Don't pretend like it's some universal thing that brings EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in this world happiness too.
about an hour ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Again, Ben, I'm arguing from the box. The box of Christian dogma. I could argue the existence of a god at all as well but I chose to keep it on one topic for argument sake.
4 minutes ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
I never said it was about turn or burn... I don't believe in the statement. I said if YOU want to look at it that way. Christianity is not about fire insurance. It's not about rules. It's not about trying to play the system. Christianity is about a relationship. That's the difference between Judaism and Christianity. Judaism was rules and ... Read Moreregulations and sacrifices -- Christianity was about the son of God dying as a PERMANENT atonement for sin. Yes -- too many people are too worried about this and that and sin and WWJD and every other legalism under the sun. Honestly, you're just as bad. You view Christianity not as a relationship but as a tyrannical god trying to snub out your individuality. I'm sad you're so closed minded that you would spout your unsubstantiated rhetoric here rather than being a man and challenging others to read and decide for themselves.
9 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
My rhetoric is more substantiated than anything you believe. I'm just saying that with power comes responsibility. Being omnipotent and omniscient would entail a lot of responsibility...that is unaccounted for by Jehovah. Do not question my manhood again. Do not say I am blindly following other people. I want anyone to believe what they're going to... Read More believe but if we're going to get into a debate about something then I'm not going to back down from my view. There is no evidence for anything that you believe. There is no real true empirical evidence for anything that happens in the four gospels. They were written nearly a century after the supposed even occurred. The writers all copy each other basically because they weren't written at the same time. No one knows who the writers were. We don't know if Mark wrote Mark or if John wrote John ...or hell, if Mark wrote John or whatever. There is no good reason to stake your life on this. None at all. You could come at me with the faith ...
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
thing but basically, I don't give a shit. I don't care about faith. Faith was only ever good in the eyes of religion. Outside the realm of religion, what is the good in faith? I am more for reason. And yes, they DO cancel each other out. You basically have to go with one or the other as far I am concerned. I might be insulting you indirectly when I... Read More attack your faith but don't attack me personally and directly. So far in this conversation you have made comments about my manhood and me being "big free-thinker." I would love for the low-blows to be excluded from this. If you can't deal with that, this conversation is over.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Plus, you say things that hint at me being not totally original...or at least it feels like that...but then you say things like "it's about relationship...not religion." That's not something you made up, I think.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
And also, this is about me attacking that IDEA of God that you and other Christians promote....because really I don't believe in it...for a lot of reasons.
8 hours ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
They weren't low blows... they were honest and correct in their context. I never said you were a bad person or that you copulated with animals. I said you needed to be more of a man and accept that you can be wrong. Not just in this area but in others. I'm sorry that you can't handle that. Faith and reason go together. I have faith in the fact that... Read More you don't like being wrong. See, they go together. This is a debate, debates aren't pretty, especially when people say things you don't want to hear. Never in this have I intended on attacking you in a manner you might find offensive, but only told what I felt was truthful and accurate. I do think you're hiding behind insecurities in this post and in your argument. I am also VERY SORRY that I offended you and that you believe what you are writing.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
You have an arrogant attitude. How else could perceive things the way you are in this conversation? To say they were "correct" is also arrogant. Your opinion is "correct?" Yes, you may think your opinion of me to be universally true but I'd say that's arrogant. I am not hiding behind anything...if anything, I am exposing myself quite a lot when I ... Read Moretake part in this kind of debate. I accept that I can be wrong. Did I ever say that I didn't? Just because my views go against yours you automatically think that I think that I'm never wrong?
All of the evidence I've EVER read for Christianity has turned out to be totally false. All of the evidence I've read against Christianity turns out to be totally right. This isn't my opinion. It isn't my opinion that the sky is blue. There is no democracy for the truth. This is just what I've found. All kinds of science, history, and reasoning philosophy go against anything the Bible ever taught. There are parts that are fairly accurate I would say
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
but for the most part...it's ridiculous. Don't feel sorry for me. Don't waste your energy. I don't need it.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Also, YOU ACCEPT THAT YOU CAN BE WRONG. Are you hearing my arguments at all? Listen to what you're saying to me. Why can you reverse it back onto yourself? If you can't, who is arrogant? Who is unfair and unbalanced? You might say "well, I can" ...but then you really won't listen to what I'm saying....or really question your beliefs objectively. I've questioned my beliefs. I didn't want to be here today but it's the only truth I've ever come to.
8 hours ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
The idea that multiple times throughout this post you have threatened to remove yourself for one reason or another is proof enough to me that you don't like what you're reading... All of that aside I would like to know what all of these "facts" are that you're hung up on. I was like you one time... I got over it through various experiences. I'm not... Read More expressing anything that I haven't personally experienced. I may sound cliche -- so what. I'm not your bible thumping, holier than though type... If you want to end this, fine -- your call. But I have enough conviction about this to not stand by while you post notions that are incorrect. Don't mean to sound arrogant; believe me, I don't ever want to sound arrogant. I will pray for you; I will. I think you will be surprised by what you might come across.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
What gave you the idea that I don't like being wrong? What in this conversation gave you that impression? The fact that I am promoting the views I'm promoting? What exactly was it?
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
I only said I'd leave once. Where did I say it a second time? If you're trying to say that "facts" are not really important when talking about this kind of thing then that is a fundamental difference between you and me. If you want talk about your experience, then I would say "that's your experience." I think it is fundamentally arrogant to say ... Read Morethat the empirical fact that Jesus rose from the grave is true based one some kind of personal experience you have had. It's like saying, "I'm happy because I saw aliens" and then you go and try to get other people be happy too based on the belief that you saw aliens. Why should anyone be happy because someone else saw or felt something? Why should anyone really change their beliefs based on someone else's subjective experience? I feel like personal stories really can CHANGE one person and that person's friends and the people they talk to but...
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
...that does NOT mean that whatever story or empirical evidence that that person is basing their feelings or emotional experience on is true. That's the core argument right there.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Your FEELINGS do not make some event 2000 years ago true or untrue. Cold empirical evidence would have more of a say in this matter.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
If you think I'm hung up on facts, then yes. That's right. I am. Fuck my feelings. I don't give a fuck. I want cold hard facts. Empirical, repeatable evidence. If you can't provide me with that...then I can't believe what you're saying to me. If it's something that's philosophical and is more of a "way of thinking" then that's one thing but ... Read MoreChristianity is supposed to be based on historical fact. It's not Buddhism. You're supposed to believe in an event...not just a way of thinking. That's the problem.
2 seconds ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
If you say that, then you negate mankinds free will....
Yesterday at 1:40pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, I think from a Christian perspective, you do negate it. I don't think from a Christian perspective...or at least I try not to. There is no free will under an all-knowing God.
Yesterday at 1:43pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Plus, if you talk about "God's Plan" at any point...you are negating man's free will.
Yesterday at 1:46pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
Not true... Just because he is all-knowing doesn't mean there is no free will. Example -- I can order any beer I want from Taco Mac, but everyone I hang out with knows I am going to immediately start with a Blue Moon. Now, I could pic any of 350+ beers, but everyone I was with knew I was going to pick the Blue Moon.... Just because God is all-knowing, doesn't mean we are treated like puppets. He created us -- He knows what we are destined to become if we make the right decisions.
Yesterday at 1:49pm · Delete
David Pack
wtf?
Yesterday at 1:50pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
I think your argument is fundamentally flawed because you are trying to equate an omnipotent being with your friends who know you well. Knowing a person well and being omnipotent are two totally different things. The point of what I'm trying to say is that if a being is omnipotent that makes him/her/it automatically responsible for EVERYTHING. It's... Read More that being's fault for EVERYTHING. Being Creator and omnipotent negates the free will of man...from God's perspective. After all, if he's the creator and He created your personality as well...he definitely had a hand in your choosing of that Blue Moon.
Yesterday at 1:59pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
If you say God didn't create your personality then you are saying that people's personalities are left outside the realm of this omnipotent omnipresent being...thus making this being NOT omnipresent because it has nothing to do with our personalities or souls or whatever you want to call it.
Yesterday at 2:00pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
and speaking of free will and God. What kind of free will is it when you have a man (God) holding a gun (Hell) at your back the whole time you're alive. Do this or die. How is that free will? Sure you can choose to live or die...but being put in that position for your whole life...is fucking nuts.
Yesterday at 2:02pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
You were basically FORCED to choose "live" (Heaven/God)in that sense. Thus canceling out the whole notion of free will in the first place. The idea of Heaven and Hell/God and Satan ALSO destroy free will....let alone this Judas story.
Yesterday at 2:03pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
If this is the only flaw you've found in the logic of Christianity, you need to do more research.
Yesterday at 2:08pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Ha! No, there's a lot I'm aware of. This is just the debate of the day. Thanks for the comment.
Yesterday at 2:09pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
All religion is based on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few. "Do what I say or I'll hurt you!"
Yesterday at 2:11pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
That's basically it. I actually have that quote on the Favorite Quotes part of my Facebook profile.
Yesterday at 2:12pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
Yeah, Stendhal wrote some great stuff. I also like "“Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men” by Voltaire, though I guess it doesn't really relate to this discussion. Ahem.
Yesterday at 2:16pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
I just thought, I'd say I'm sorry to Drew Schroder and to Andrew Bush. I'm sorry for the Christians of the past and the Christians of the future. Their intolerance and their religion have been the blame (justly and injustly) for harm that has been done to this world. I do, however, believe that there are people who do have a strong faith in ... Read MoreChristianity who are working/striving to change some of the religious practices and the intolerance that has caused sufferage in the lives of others. I believe that one of the biggest parts of living a Christian life is to be or become tolerant of the condition of man to build relationships. Not necessarily to convert, but to bring a bit of the Kingdom of Heaven to earth for those in need.
P.S. I have often pondered a bit of the same. The only stance that I can truly take on it, and I am nearly man so my stance is a bit shaky, is that Judas came to the Elders and the high priests of the church at that time. He gave them the silver he had been
Yesterday at 4:13pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, I think that's all well and good but I'm just pointing out some fundamental problems with Christianity...not just the way it's perceived but what it actually says. I think there's a lot of things that need to be considered more deeply.
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
paid (well dropped it on the ground when they wouldn't accept it) and expressed that he had betrayed Jesus. He stated that Jesus was innocent. The only thing I see wrong with this picture, is that before the man hung himself - if he wanted to make right with God - he probably should have told Him that, and not the high priests. Who's to say he's ... Read Morenot a hero of the bible? I think that the reason why suicide is considered a "sin" is because, it's kind of like telling God you know timing better than He. If I was God, I probably wouldn't like that too much, either. But, the whole world was "sinning" (telling God they as humans knew better than He), that's kind of why Jesus was up on the cross to begin with. So - in my eyes - it sucks Judas killed himself, but He was needed in the story, and I'm kind of thankful he turned Jesus in. He would have been murdered regardless - all the rest of the disciples were.
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, I take a couple of issues with what you're saying. You're automatically viewing this entire story as true. Plus, you apparently believe in sin. I think things can be bad and good...moral and immoral without any kind of god. The problem with a lot of people I find is that they can't think outside of the box on this issue. It really shows when ... Read Morethey ask "Do you believe in God?" And my response could be "Which God?" The only way these people asking this question think of God is that of Jehovah. I think it shows the box they are thinking in. But the fact still remains...like Stephen pointed out...if there's a Divine Plan...then there is no free will. If God created EVERYTHING...wouldn't this include your personality and all the situations and events that occur on Earth (and elsewhere, I'd imagine) ?? This means that there is NO free will under this system...if you believe all these things.
This is another tangent but...
is God a miracle-maker if one guy survives a plane crash? ...
Yesterday at 4:26pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Or that plane that landed on the Hudson? People will say that "God was with that pilot." But who's the one that allowed for that even to occur in the first place...if you're thinking about an omnipresent God? The only argument at this point would be that God was just testing everyone's faith...but NO ONE will say that and/or probably NO ONE thinks ... Read Moreof it in that way. It's the classic case of seeing God as being something that does all the good and none of the bad when ....under this system of Christianity it's very much the opposite. Again, I'm arguing from inside the box.
Yesterday at 4:28pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
It's like people just don't think that God really is (under this system of belief) ALLOWING or MAKING all these events occur. You can't say that God is omnipresent and then say "God was with somebody." Like if someone is born with AIDS...you HAVE to say that God allowed for that to happen. If not, God is NOT omnipresent....if God is who you're ... Read Moresaying he is. The fact of suffering in the world is one of the main causes people leave Christianity and religion. It's unaccounted for with religion. You don't even have to think about science ...or argue from that perspective at this point.
Yesterday at 4:33pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
I was restating the orginal intent of the argument. Who ever said that Judas wasn't a hero of the bible?
Yesterday at 4:43pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Oh, well, I'm sure lots of people do. I was just trying to show a different perspective on the story. Even in colloquial speech, "Judas" can be synonymous with "traitor." If you don't think so, that's fine...but I was mainly aiming at the general audience...not one particular person. If you think my assessment of the "general" is not correct, then I guess that'd be something to talk about.
Yesterday at 4:46pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
Indeed, many Christians believe that when a miracle occurs, "it is God's will!", but when tragedy strikes, "he moves in mysterious ways". One could answer with ""Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Yesterday at 5:01pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
Well done, my friend. I like your debatables. I haven't taken the automatic belief much in my life, and it's interesting to have come to a belief in what so many people from the South believe to be the automatic approach in theology. My main focus is not necessarily theology, but I like to study others belief systems. Omnipresent doesn't ... Read Morenecessarily mean that He MAKES bad things (or what people consider to be bad things) happen, it does however mean that he is always there when it does happen. I do think God allows bad things to happen - sometimes i believe people ask for it. Like, I don't care for an attachment to some things because they cause me a wax and wane of emotions. When these things are taken from me, I am left soley to rely on God to provide for me, and then I begin to wonder why there is so much suffering in my life. I blame God, but not in a negative way. I appreciate the detachment from these things, as it decreases my suffering here. Both view points are selfish.
Yesterday at 5:07pm · Delete
Drew Schroder
I don't mean to sound rude, but is English your native language, Liberty? Your last post was less than articulate; I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. It certainly wasn't a counter point to my post.
Yesterday at 5:22pm · Delete
Liberty Grant
There was no way to respond to your box of questions that occured before my preivous statement. I was simply stating that I appreciated Andrew's questions, as they tend to make me think outside the box. I'm sorry that you didn't understand the last few sentences of my response. Maybe someday you will. I didn't care to go back and correct simple ... Read Moregrammatical mistakes. Have fun deciphering it, as I would have had fun trying to find a loophole in your square list of questions above. Ever read anything by Richard Dawkins, or books about John Dewey or E.V. Naicker? If you haven't already found them all; I'm sure you could find some more questions for that list in something of that sort.
Yesterday at 5:42pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Well, basically, it goes like .... the arguments dealing with suffering go against the Christian idea of God and any religions that are similar. It does not go against the idea of "God" in general, I would suppose. This limits the suffering and "free will" argument to just Jehovah and similar gods. The Deist idea of god could not be affected by ... Read Morethis kind of argumentation. However, when we get into this realm, you leave the suffering argument and move into science and ...reasoning realm. It becomes a question of science where the Big Bang starts to sound really natural and not supernatural...and quantum physics and the theory of everything that can really go against any real idea of god. And the reasoning side...where you can argue that god is possible...but it still has nothing to say about how probable it/he/she is. The flying spaghetti monster and the teacup orbiting Jupiter argument come to mind.
Yesterday at 6:15pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
This whole argument about god really has, in this Facebook thread, been revealed to me that it's really two-fold. One side is attacking one god, Jehovah, and the other is attacking any idea of god at all.
Yesterday at 6:15pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Sir, do not accuse me of that. I have studied and still do study the Bible. It may sound like I do not because of the way I'm talking about but I think that's because you've probably neve heard or read about these views before. I rest my case since you said it was about turn or burn. Even if I believed that that god was real...no thank you. That's fucked morality. I want no part of it. Again I am arguing ad if these things are true. It's just for the sake of argument.
Yesterday at 10:24pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
If god told me to kill someone I'd say look you got the wrong guy. I don't do that shit.
Yesterday at 10:25pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
And I don't believe there are no consequences. I think morals and consequences exist without any kind of divine law. Don't jump to that conclusion about me.
Yesterday at 10:27pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
You have a twisted view of who God is and what hell is -- sorry we didn't finish this last night, but I have a little medical condition that had to be tended to --
I may not hit these in order, but I will at least try to hit them all --
We have free will, like I said last night. Yes, no matter how you put it, it seems that we don't have a truly free will -- and yet, at the same time you're leaving anything but a life of free will when you spend so much time arguing the concept of God being some sort of tyrannical being. (Which is what you are doing in your arguments) God doesn't hold a gun to our backs -- he gives us a choice (duh) you can choose hell or you can choose life. Understand that from a standpoint of creationism we were created solely for the pleasure of the heavenly father -- hence the reason prior to the fall of man the bible refers to Adam and God walking together in the cool of the evening. ... Read More
Think about how you would feel as a creator -- if you had that ability --
Yesterday at 9:56pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
Personally I feel like that's all myth. The Adam and Eve story has no basis in reality. The point is that God could change the way things are. We COULD have free will and NO hell...but it's not that way. I suppose you could say that God loves us so he invented Hell...but why would he invent human nature to the point where we NEED Hell to "... Read Morestraighten up" or...scare us into following him. This I do not understand. Again, there is no choice when it's heaven or hell...you think anyone really chooses hell? People just give up on the idea altogether. People don't really choose hell...they just stop believing in it. I do think that if this God did exist, he would be tyrannical. Having power to help someone but not doing it is tyrannical.
Yesterday at 10:02pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
would it be fulfilling to you to have your creation love you only out of fear -- or would you let them make a choice? On top of that, would you reward your creation for despising you and cursing your name? I think not. God doesn't hold a gun to our backs, he gives us a choice. Standing on the outside, people don't see where the choice is, or where ... Read Morethe love is, or even how sane the whole idea is. All people on the outside see is their pride and arrogance. They can't see what God's love is and if you don't first understand what love is and what God's love is, then the rest is pointless. You have a choice to make in your own life, I assume from this post and previous ones, you have made it, and I'm sorry if that's the case. But we have NEVER been forced to choose anything by God -- thats why there is a heaven and hell -- proof that we have a choice.
Yesterday at 10:02pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
You're exercising your free will now by openly despising the God that created you. Now, tell me you still don't believe you have free will.
Yesterday at 10:04pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
But that's exactly what God does in your eyes. It basically is turn or burn....on a very base level. If there was no Hell, why would I need Jesus.....why would I need God? ....seriously...
Yesterday at 10:04pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
No, ...again, I'm arguing from inside of the box...the box being Christian doctrine/dogma. My idea of free will is a little different. I'm basically arguing against the idea of free in the Christian system....that way of thinking...that box...
Yesterday at 10:06pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
If you want to look at it on a base level, ok -- turn or burn. I don't see it that way. I see God as being jealous of what He created. There's nothing wrong with the creator of the universe being jealous of His creation. He has every right to give us a choice -- we can choose to do our own thing -- we burn. or, we can choose to love him -- and ... Read Morecontrary to what you may think or believe that doesn't mean you become some whacked out, non-drinking, crappy music listening, loud mouth loon that walks the streets yelling the end is near. No, it's not that at all. It's actually hope, and love you can't get anywhere else. It's peace when your father gets hit by a car, or when you find out your liver is dying. Maybe if your family loses everything they have, it gives you hope... There is only a dogmatic box of you're too shallow to realize the one place there is no box is at the foot of Jesus. Cliche sounding, yes. But truthful none the less.
Yesterday at 10:13pm · Delete
Stephen Hill
Your idea of free will is more like moral relativism -- you can do whatever you want with no consequences. I would be careful of discussing christian doctrine/dogma if you haven't taken the time to study what the bible and the writings it came from really say. Over the years there have been A LOT of people that have distorted the truth of Christianity and what the Bible says. Don't take another man's word -- look at it yourself you big free-thinker...
Yesterday at 10:17pm · Delete
Andrew Bush
I replied on another thread but you still should have gotten the response in e-mail since you're a part of that one too. At any rate, thanks for the conversation.
Yesterday at 10:57pm · Delete
Tomo Tojo
Might be and might not be off topic but... what is personality anyway. There's no absolute "self"... we all define each other, and even differently. You can look arrogant to one person and compassionate to another. The only absolute existence is our physical body, which is just a part of the natural world.
You don't need to believe in God to exist... Read More... and we do not need to be special, compared to other creatures in the world. I understand if people just "need" God.
Saying that the world (with different people in different cultures) is chaotic because God let us chose to be so is, to me, sounding exactly the same as saying that you can't explain anything. Why do you still need God then? To satisfy your teleological need, eh?
9 hours ago · Delete
BenJammin Redden ॐ
God is bigger than any sectarian boundaries. You're thinking of Him in terms of Christianity. You can't dismiss the absence of an elephant's body because you only see one of his legs.
5 hours ago · Delete
Tomo Tojo
I don't exactly get what the comment above is trying to say, and don't even know if it was for me, but ... Yes and God(s) was/were not, and still is/are not, in some cultures, the object to have faith in, for his salvation, and to follow in some cultures. I am skeptical about any God that leads people to exclude other people/creatures, by "giving them free-will"...
2 hours ago · Delete
Tomo Tojo
Why do you need human-like symbolic "existence" that you don't even know exist...? And why did he need to "create" everything? It might be the piece of wood in front of you... I feel like people have been too weak to be patiently keep asking the origin of the world, so they needed someone to justify their weakness. Do not think/pretend like you can... Read More get the answer (already prepared) so easily. Keep doubting. If you need something to have faith in, to be happy, then say so... it's alright. Don't pretend like it's some universal thing that brings EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in this world happiness too.
about an hour ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Again, Ben, I'm arguing from the box. The box of Christian dogma. I could argue the existence of a god at all as well but I chose to keep it on one topic for argument sake.
4 minutes ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
I never said it was about turn or burn... I don't believe in the statement. I said if YOU want to look at it that way. Christianity is not about fire insurance. It's not about rules. It's not about trying to play the system. Christianity is about a relationship. That's the difference between Judaism and Christianity. Judaism was rules and ... Read Moreregulations and sacrifices -- Christianity was about the son of God dying as a PERMANENT atonement for sin. Yes -- too many people are too worried about this and that and sin and WWJD and every other legalism under the sun. Honestly, you're just as bad. You view Christianity not as a relationship but as a tyrannical god trying to snub out your individuality. I'm sad you're so closed minded that you would spout your unsubstantiated rhetoric here rather than being a man and challenging others to read and decide for themselves.
9 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
My rhetoric is more substantiated than anything you believe. I'm just saying that with power comes responsibility. Being omnipotent and omniscient would entail a lot of responsibility...that is unaccounted for by Jehovah. Do not question my manhood again. Do not say I am blindly following other people. I want anyone to believe what they're going to... Read More believe but if we're going to get into a debate about something then I'm not going to back down from my view. There is no evidence for anything that you believe. There is no real true empirical evidence for anything that happens in the four gospels. They were written nearly a century after the supposed even occurred. The writers all copy each other basically because they weren't written at the same time. No one knows who the writers were. We don't know if Mark wrote Mark or if John wrote John ...or hell, if Mark wrote John or whatever. There is no good reason to stake your life on this. None at all. You could come at me with the faith ...
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
thing but basically, I don't give a shit. I don't care about faith. Faith was only ever good in the eyes of religion. Outside the realm of religion, what is the good in faith? I am more for reason. And yes, they DO cancel each other out. You basically have to go with one or the other as far I am concerned. I might be insulting you indirectly when I... Read More attack your faith but don't attack me personally and directly. So far in this conversation you have made comments about my manhood and me being "big free-thinker." I would love for the low-blows to be excluded from this. If you can't deal with that, this conversation is over.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Plus, you say things that hint at me being not totally original...or at least it feels like that...but then you say things like "it's about relationship...not religion." That's not something you made up, I think.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
And also, this is about me attacking that IDEA of God that you and other Christians promote....because really I don't believe in it...for a lot of reasons.
8 hours ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
They weren't low blows... they were honest and correct in their context. I never said you were a bad person or that you copulated with animals. I said you needed to be more of a man and accept that you can be wrong. Not just in this area but in others. I'm sorry that you can't handle that. Faith and reason go together. I have faith in the fact that... Read More you don't like being wrong. See, they go together. This is a debate, debates aren't pretty, especially when people say things you don't want to hear. Never in this have I intended on attacking you in a manner you might find offensive, but only told what I felt was truthful and accurate. I do think you're hiding behind insecurities in this post and in your argument. I am also VERY SORRY that I offended you and that you believe what you are writing.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
You have an arrogant attitude. How else could perceive things the way you are in this conversation? To say they were "correct" is also arrogant. Your opinion is "correct?" Yes, you may think your opinion of me to be universally true but I'd say that's arrogant. I am not hiding behind anything...if anything, I am exposing myself quite a lot when I ... Read Moretake part in this kind of debate. I accept that I can be wrong. Did I ever say that I didn't? Just because my views go against yours you automatically think that I think that I'm never wrong?
All of the evidence I've EVER read for Christianity has turned out to be totally false. All of the evidence I've read against Christianity turns out to be totally right. This isn't my opinion. It isn't my opinion that the sky is blue. There is no democracy for the truth. This is just what I've found. All kinds of science, history, and reasoning philosophy go against anything the Bible ever taught. There are parts that are fairly accurate I would say
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
but for the most part...it's ridiculous. Don't feel sorry for me. Don't waste your energy. I don't need it.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Also, YOU ACCEPT THAT YOU CAN BE WRONG. Are you hearing my arguments at all? Listen to what you're saying to me. Why can you reverse it back onto yourself? If you can't, who is arrogant? Who is unfair and unbalanced? You might say "well, I can" ...but then you really won't listen to what I'm saying....or really question your beliefs objectively. I've questioned my beliefs. I didn't want to be here today but it's the only truth I've ever come to.
8 hours ago · Delete
Stephen Hill
The idea that multiple times throughout this post you have threatened to remove yourself for one reason or another is proof enough to me that you don't like what you're reading... All of that aside I would like to know what all of these "facts" are that you're hung up on. I was like you one time... I got over it through various experiences. I'm not... Read More expressing anything that I haven't personally experienced. I may sound cliche -- so what. I'm not your bible thumping, holier than though type... If you want to end this, fine -- your call. But I have enough conviction about this to not stand by while you post notions that are incorrect. Don't mean to sound arrogant; believe me, I don't ever want to sound arrogant. I will pray for you; I will. I think you will be surprised by what you might come across.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
What gave you the idea that I don't like being wrong? What in this conversation gave you that impression? The fact that I am promoting the views I'm promoting? What exactly was it?
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
I only said I'd leave once. Where did I say it a second time? If you're trying to say that "facts" are not really important when talking about this kind of thing then that is a fundamental difference between you and me. If you want talk about your experience, then I would say "that's your experience." I think it is fundamentally arrogant to say ... Read Morethat the empirical fact that Jesus rose from the grave is true based one some kind of personal experience you have had. It's like saying, "I'm happy because I saw aliens" and then you go and try to get other people be happy too based on the belief that you saw aliens. Why should anyone be happy because someone else saw or felt something? Why should anyone really change their beliefs based on someone else's subjective experience? I feel like personal stories really can CHANGE one person and that person's friends and the people they talk to but...
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
...that does NOT mean that whatever story or empirical evidence that that person is basing their feelings or emotional experience on is true. That's the core argument right there.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
Your FEELINGS do not make some event 2000 years ago true or untrue. Cold empirical evidence would have more of a say in this matter.
8 hours ago · Delete
Andrew Bush
If you think I'm hung up on facts, then yes. That's right. I am. Fuck my feelings. I don't give a fuck. I want cold hard facts. Empirical, repeatable evidence. If you can't provide me with that...then I can't believe what you're saying to me. If it's something that's philosophical and is more of a "way of thinking" then that's one thing but ... Read MoreChristianity is supposed to be based on historical fact. It's not Buddhism. You're supposed to believe in an event...not just a way of thinking. That's the problem.
2 seconds ago · Delete