You know up until the weirdness in "Simon Says" and the ending where Sam subtexted as much as "you know, I`d really feel better if you and Tracy were dead and Andy hadn`t killed anyone" - and a big fat Huh? to that - I thought it was pretty consistent. It`s only this episode that has thrown everything ou of balance.
On the issue of killing we have Faith!Sam who wasn`t that broken up about someone being traded in for Dean`s life, who also argued against just going off and killing Roy yet couldn`t imagine SueAnn`s motivations at first *cough* short term memory loss, Sam *cough* and looked ready to kill her himself when he found Dean`s picture at the altar. He also appeared to be of the "serves you right" school of thinking when he smashed the cross and watched her be killed by the Reaper. At least his facial expressions did
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Sam subtexted as much as "you know, I`d really feel better if you and Tracy were dead and Andy hadn`t killed anyone" - and a big fat Huh? to that - I thought it was pretty consistent.
I don't know that I read that subtext in his rationale there. I think he wasn't thinking past the kill itself, and the reasons for it didn't enter in.
He wanted more about the Demon out of her. Dean thought they had all the info on Dad. Disconnect in motive.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.
Almost as if he had read the sides for DT with the cut line. :)
Hee. :O) And let me tell you, if THAT is John/Dean's secret, I'll be mighty disappointed. Surely not, since that was officially spilled as soon as those sides came out.
I don't know that I read that subtext in his rationale there. I think he wasn't thinking past the kill itself, and the reasons for it didn't enter in.
I phrased that wrong. It`s not that he thought that but that he carelessly didn`t notice how it came across. He was so tunnel-visioned in his "wah killer" part I found it OOC how the "wah, Dean could be dead part" didn`t seem to enter through the haze. And with the dialogue at the end a logical follow up question would have been: "So would you be happier if Andy had not killed and Dean and Tracey were dead?" I guess then Sam would have realized what he just said or how he said it.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.When they interrogated her it was clear that both wanted to use
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I don't really think Sam and Dean were responsible for Meg's death. In my view, Meg was already dead, and the demon within was just keeping the body alive unnaturally. And if you get really technical, then I suppose Sam is ultimately the one who killed Meg, since it was his actions that led to her 7-storey drop in 'Shadows'.
I do think it's interesting that Tom was never brought up again. I'm guessing it's because Sam already exonerated Dean for it in DT? And in a way, Tom and Meg's deaths were different from the deaths caused by Max or even Andy's kill. Tom and Meg were possessed, but these other victims were just people. Maybe that's the distinction? We've seen Dean threaten to kill regular people (well, as in no demonic possession) a few times, but we've yet to see him actually follow through. It would be interesting to see how Sam would react to that...
In my view, Meg was already dead, and the demon within was just keeping the body alive unnaturally.
I agree. We don't know what else the demon put Meg the human through before she fell out of that building. I think if they are going to take on the blame for her death, then they are mutually responsible. Sam for the Shadow fall and being the "weapon" (exorcism), and Dean for choosing... well, euthanasia. Still, Dean takes on that guilt whereas Sam never has, so it seems like they both see it as "Dean's kill," if it's anybody's.
Poor Tom does seem to be a one-shot deal. (Er, no pun intended.) To illustrate how far Dean is willing to go, and then never to be mentioned again once the point is made. I hope they follow up on that, though, and given how well they handle consequences, I'd imagine they will.
I noted that during Simon Said - he doesn't even think that his words about Webber and Andy might be hurting Dean, because he just doesn't register Dean's killing of people.
Yeah, I think you're right. He was so caught up in the actual kill itself, the validation of his fears as he saw it, that he didn't think beyond how the issue related to the PK's. And even then, he wouldn't consider motive and reason. He talked of being pushed, but the bottom line was the kill itself.
Maybe the demon/human trade-off is acceptable. Or, not "acceptable," per se, but forgivable. It's almost like he sees Dean as a victim, though, and himself and the other PKs as... well, victims but with responsibilities. Dean isn't tied at all to the Demon directly, so if he's pushed to kill, then he's only a victim, whereas if Sam is pushed to kill, he's actually fulfilling a purpose. Maybe that's the distinction...? The reason for killing doesn't matter; it's the fulfillment of the Demon's plans that's the greatest evil...?
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On the issue of killing we have Faith!Sam who wasn`t that broken up about someone being traded in for Dean`s life, who also argued against just going off and killing Roy yet couldn`t imagine SueAnn`s motivations at first *cough* short term memory loss, Sam *cough* and looked ready to kill her himself when he found Dean`s picture at the altar. He also appeared to be of the "serves you right" school of thinking when he smashed the cross and watched her be killed by the Reaper. At least his facial expressions did ( ... )
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I don't know that I read that subtext in his rationale there. I think he wasn't thinking past the kill itself, and the reasons for it didn't enter in.
He wanted more about the Demon out of her. Dean thought they had all the info on Dad. Disconnect in motive.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.
Almost as if he had read the sides for DT with the cut line. :)
Hee. :O) And let me tell you, if THAT is John/Dean's secret, I'll be mighty disappointed. Surely not, since that was officially spilled as soon as those sides came out.
Like they can`t ( ... )
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I phrased that wrong. It`s not that he thought that but that he carelessly didn`t notice how it came across. He was so tunnel-visioned in his "wah killer" part I found it OOC how the "wah, Dean could be dead part" didn`t seem to enter through the haze. And with the dialogue at the end a logical follow up question would have been: "So would you be happier if Andy had not killed and Dean and Tracey were dead?" I guess then Sam would have realized what he just said or how he said it.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.When they interrogated her it was clear that both wanted to use ( ... )
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I do think it's interesting that Tom was never brought up again. I'm guessing it's because Sam already exonerated Dean for it in DT? And in a way, Tom and Meg's deaths were different from the deaths caused by Max or even Andy's kill. Tom and Meg were possessed, but these other victims were just people. Maybe that's the distinction? We've seen Dean threaten to kill regular people (well, as in no demonic possession) a few times, but we've yet to see him actually follow through. It would be interesting to see how Sam would react to that...
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I agree. We don't know what else the demon put Meg the human through before she fell out of that building. I think if they are going to take on the blame for her death, then they are mutually responsible. Sam for the Shadow fall and being the "weapon" (exorcism), and Dean for choosing... well, euthanasia. Still, Dean takes on that guilt whereas Sam never has, so it seems like they both see it as "Dean's kill," if it's anybody's.
Poor Tom does seem to be a one-shot deal. (Er, no pun intended.) To illustrate how far Dean is willing to go, and then never to be mentioned again once the point is made. I hope they follow up on that, though, and given how well they handle consequences, I'd imagine they will.
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Yeah, I think you're right. He was so caught up in the actual kill itself, the validation of his fears as he saw it, that he didn't think beyond how the issue related to the PK's. And even then, he wouldn't consider motive and reason. He talked of being pushed, but the bottom line was the kill itself.
Maybe the demon/human trade-off is acceptable. Or, not "acceptable," per se, but forgivable. It's almost like he sees Dean as a victim, though, and himself and the other PKs as... well, victims but with responsibilities. Dean isn't tied at all to the Demon directly, so if he's pushed to kill, then he's only a victim, whereas if Sam is pushed to kill, he's actually fulfilling a purpose. Maybe that's the distinction...? The reason for killing doesn't matter; it's the fulfillment of the Demon's plans that's the greatest evil...?
For Dean it's different, Sam's always ( ... )
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