You know up until the weirdness in "Simon Says" and the ending where Sam subtexted as much as "you know, I`d really feel better if you and Tracy were dead and Andy hadn`t killed anyone" - and a big fat Huh? to that - I thought it was pretty consistent. It`s only this episode that has thrown everything ou of balance.
On the issue of killing we have Faith!Sam who wasn`t that broken up about someone being traded in for Dean`s life, who also argued against just going off and killing Roy yet couldn`t imagine SueAnn`s motivations at first *cough* short term memory loss, Sam *cough* and looked ready to kill her himself when he found Dean`s picture at the altar. He also appeared to be of the "serves you right" school of thinking when he smashed the cross and watched her be killed by the Reaper. At least his facial expressions did.
Then we have Nightmare!Sam who even before knowing there is a connection between him and Max overidentifies with the kid. He also expresses sympathy for Max`s idea of justice. Again he argues: do not kill humans.
In DT we have Pragmatic!Sam of "you didn`t have a choice" where he genuinely absolves Dean of any blame. And him hesitating with Meg only had to do with his goals being a bit different here. He wanted more about the Demon out of her. Dean thought they had all the info on Dad. Disconnect in motive.
In Bloodlust he learns that lets say their usual prey might not always be so black and white. To this point I don`t think he ever had issues with the ethical treatments of Wendigos, werewolves or shapeshifters. All of which have some human herecy.
Fast forward to SS. Now Sam has a tendency to overthink and project but he was making pretty wild leaps here to "We`re all gonna be killers. Screetch." Almost as if he had read the sides for DT with the cut line. :) So it seems like he holds the PKs specifically to higher standards. Like they can`t justifiably kill whatsoever. Because of higher risk to demonic influence? Like once blood is spilled you`re tainted and open to it forever?
In general I`d say he would be more apt to pardon Dean in whatsoever than he would be the Average Joe. The PKs? Are in a no-win situation. Which I write down more as him totally panicking (like maybe he would be satisfied if every PK they met from now on will be Gandhi-like - maybe) than giving a good accounting for his views on killing.
So I don`t know if they will really touch upon this in 2.07. The delightful bantering though in the Director`s Cut makes me think about doing a meta for their manlove through brother bickering, moments when they were really friends - picking on each other but still rock solid manlove, you know. :)
Sam subtexted as much as "you know, I`d really feel better if you and Tracy were dead and Andy hadn`t killed anyone" - and a big fat Huh? to that - I thought it was pretty consistent.
I don't know that I read that subtext in his rationale there. I think he wasn't thinking past the kill itself, and the reasons for it didn't enter in.
He wanted more about the Demon out of her. Dean thought they had all the info on Dad. Disconnect in motive.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.
Almost as if he had read the sides for DT with the cut line. :)
Hee. :O) And let me tell you, if THAT is John/Dean's secret, I'll be mighty disappointed. Surely not, since that was officially spilled as soon as those sides came out.
Like they can`t justifiably kill whatsoever. Because of higher risk to demonic influence? Like once blood is spilled you`re tainted and open to it forever?
I think you might have a point there, though, regarding Sam's view of the PK "killers". He didn't realize there was such a multitude of them originally, with Max, but now that he knows of at least three others (killers, all, in the literal sense) perhaps he believes once a killer, always a killer. And motives be damned.
Dean probably gets the get out of jail free card not so much because he's family but because of their bond independent of that. And Sam has seen Dean regret those killings, and take on guilt for deaths that are not his fault. So perhaps he views Dean as a victim of this violent world, even more so than he views himself and the other PKs as such...?? Hmm.
(That clip was love. I can't wait for tonight's episode!)
I don't know that I read that subtext in his rationale there. I think he wasn't thinking past the kill itself, and the reasons for it didn't enter in.
I phrased that wrong. It`s not that he thought that but that he carelessly didn`t notice how it came across. He was so tunnel-visioned in his "wah killer" part I found it OOC how the "wah, Dean could be dead part" didn`t seem to enter through the haze. And with the dialogue at the end a logical follow up question would have been: "So would you be happier if Andy had not killed and Dean and Tracey were dead?" I guess then Sam would have realized what he just said or how he said it.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.
When they interrogated her it was clear that both wanted to use her, Dean for Dad-intel, Sam for Demon-intel and once Dean made the call that he got everything he needed Sam looked decidedly unhappy. He clearly thought she could tell them more. Then he was also scared because Dean was somewhat borderline. I don`t think he shared Bobby`s apparent case of stupenditis of "we can`t kill her." Huh? A) she is already dead and b) what are your options, man? Keep her under the seal indefinitely? Wait for a demonic rescue party? Let her go? I even thought Tom was a more than justifiable judgement call. Shoot him in the leg and then what? Get TKed into a wall and Sam smashed regardless?
Hee. :O) And let me tell you, if THAT is John/Dean's secret, I'll be mighty disappointed. Surely not, since that was officially spilled as soon as those sides came out.
I`m half afraid though that that`s really gonna be supposed to be a big "reveal." I mean, even without that line what plans could a murdering, Mommy-burning demon might have had with superpowered kids? I don`t think the term "benevolent" even enters this equation.
So perhaps he views Dean as a victim of this violent world, even more so than he views himself and the other PKs as such...?? Hmm.
Yeah but he even had this non-sensical line of "Last I checked I kill all kinds of things..." in SS. Uhm, according to Season 1, no you didn`t :) and your brother is sitting right beside you, the one who kills all kinds of things too. I think when it comes to the PKs Sam is completely irrational and tunnel-visioned. In SS that is. What goes for them, doesn`t go for everybody else, least of all Dean.
On the issue of killing we have Faith!Sam who wasn`t that broken up about someone being traded in for Dean`s life, who also argued against just going off and killing Roy yet couldn`t imagine SueAnn`s motivations at first *cough* short term memory loss, Sam *cough* and looked ready to kill her himself when he found Dean`s picture at the altar. He also appeared to be of the "serves you right" school of thinking when he smashed the cross and watched her be killed by the Reaper. At least his facial expressions did.
Then we have Nightmare!Sam who even before knowing there is a connection between him and Max overidentifies with the kid. He also expresses sympathy for Max`s idea of justice. Again he argues: do not kill humans.
In DT we have Pragmatic!Sam of "you didn`t have a choice" where he genuinely absolves Dean of any blame. And him hesitating with Meg only had to do with his goals being a bit different here. He wanted more about the Demon out of her. Dean thought they had all the info on Dad. Disconnect in motive.
In Bloodlust he learns that lets say their usual prey might not always be so black and white. To this point I don`t think he ever had issues with the ethical treatments of Wendigos, werewolves or shapeshifters. All of which have some human herecy.
Fast forward to SS. Now Sam has a tendency to overthink and project but he was making pretty wild leaps here to "We`re all gonna be killers. Screetch." Almost as if he had read the sides for DT with the cut line. :) So it seems like he holds the PKs specifically to higher standards. Like they can`t justifiably kill whatsoever. Because of higher risk to demonic influence? Like once blood is spilled you`re tainted and open to it forever?
In general I`d say he would be more apt to pardon Dean in whatsoever than he would be the Average Joe. The PKs? Are in a no-win situation. Which I write down more as him totally panicking (like maybe he would be satisfied if every PK they met from now on will be Gandhi-like - maybe) than giving a good accounting for his views on killing.
So I don`t know if they will really touch upon this in 2.07. The delightful bantering though in the Director`s Cut makes me think about doing a meta for their manlove through brother bickering, moments when they were really friends - picking on each other but still rock solid manlove, you know. :)
Reply
I don't know that I read that subtext in his rationale there. I think he wasn't thinking past the kill itself, and the reasons for it didn't enter in.
He wanted more about the Demon out of her. Dean thought they had all the info on Dad. Disconnect in motive.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.
Almost as if he had read the sides for DT with the cut line. :)
Hee. :O) And let me tell you, if THAT is John/Dean's secret, I'll be mighty disappointed. Surely not, since that was officially spilled as soon as those sides came out.
Like they can`t justifiably kill whatsoever. Because of higher risk to demonic influence? Like once blood is spilled you`re tainted and open to it forever?
I think you might have a point there, though, regarding Sam's view of the PK "killers". He didn't realize there was such a multitude of them originally, with Max, but now that he knows of at least three others (killers, all, in the literal sense) perhaps he believes once a killer, always a killer. And motives be damned.
Dean probably gets the get out of jail free card not so much because he's family but because of their bond independent of that. And Sam has seen Dean regret those killings, and take on guilt for deaths that are not his fault. So perhaps he views Dean as a victim of this violent world, even more so than he views himself and the other PKs as such...?? Hmm.
(That clip was love. I can't wait for tonight's episode!)
Reply
I phrased that wrong. It`s not that he thought that but that he carelessly didn`t notice how it came across. He was so tunnel-visioned in his "wah killer" part I found it OOC how the "wah, Dean could be dead part" didn`t seem to enter through the haze. And with the dialogue at the end a logical follow up question would have been: "So would you be happier if Andy had not killed and Dean and Tracey were dead?" I guess then Sam would have realized what he just said or how he said it.
I also disagree here that intel on the Demon was his prime motivation. My impression was that he was mainly balking against the kill itself, and he tried to find a reason that might appeal to Dean. Intel on Demon = better intel on Dad. That's just my interpretation of JP's facial expressions during the moments that came before that confrontation.
When they interrogated her it was clear that both wanted to use her, Dean for Dad-intel, Sam for Demon-intel and once Dean made the call that he got everything he needed Sam looked decidedly unhappy. He clearly thought she could tell them more.
Then he was also scared because Dean was somewhat borderline. I don`t think he shared Bobby`s apparent case of stupenditis of "we can`t kill her." Huh? A) she is already dead and b) what are your options, man? Keep her under the seal indefinitely? Wait for a demonic rescue party? Let her go?
I even thought Tom was a more than justifiable judgement call. Shoot him in the leg and then what? Get TKed into a wall and Sam smashed regardless?
Hee. :O) And let me tell you, if THAT is John/Dean's secret, I'll be mighty disappointed. Surely not, since that was officially spilled as soon as those sides came out.
I`m half afraid though that that`s really gonna be supposed to be a big "reveal." I mean, even without that line what plans could a murdering, Mommy-burning demon might have had with superpowered kids? I don`t think the term "benevolent" even enters this equation.
So perhaps he views Dean as a victim of this violent world, even more so than he views himself and the other PKs as such...?? Hmm.
Yeah but he even had this non-sensical line of "Last I checked I kill all kinds of things..." in SS. Uhm, according to Season 1, no you didn`t :) and your brother is sitting right beside you, the one who kills all kinds of things too. I think when it comes to the PKs Sam is completely irrational and tunnel-visioned. In SS that is. What goes for them, doesn`t go for everybody else, least of all Dean.
Reply
Leave a comment