Next verse, same as the first.

[splash_the_cat]

Linkspam on the fail surrounding Patricia Wrede's "Thirteenth Child", an alternate fantasy pioneer history of the Americas where Native peoples never existed. From the Tor review, "This is an alternate version of our world which is full of magic, and where America (“Columbia”) was discovered empty of people but full of dangerous animals, many of

Comments

[daveamongus]

What I find problematic in the Tor conversation is that the concepts discussed in RaceFail have morphed from a sort of compassionate (toward the author) condemnation of the unconscious societal attitudes that beget this kind of tin ear for race/gender/culture sensitivity, to an outright condemnation of the author as an immoral being, full of conscious understanding of the reprecussions of her actions. I doubt Wrede in particular perpetrated that kind of disregard

[dendrophilous]

It does leave me curious, though, as to where this ranks in terms of literary crimes against Native Americans: above, or below the Alvin Maker series?

I thought I saw some commenters holding the Alvin Maker books as a good example. I haven't read them, so wouldn't know.

[daveamongus]

My memory is of the Native American characters being batted between Noble Savages and Magical Negroes.

[splash_the_cat]

to an outright condemnation of the author as an immoral being, full of conscious understanding of the reprecussions of her actions.

When you consider how many authors made it damn clear during RaceFail that they just don't give a shit about these issues, I'm not surprised. Sure, Wrede herself may not have consciously realized how this reading of the novel could happen, but I truly do get how POC, after seeing this over and over and over, and pointing out how these issues are a problem over and over and over, finally just say fuck it, and write all white authors off as a whole. It's same shit, different day for a lot of people, and yeah, it sucks that people who don't intend harm sometimes get the brunt of it, but intent isn't all that it's about.

(Speaking as a woman SF fan, I'll be blunt. Male SF authors have an extra step (or three) to take in earning my trust as a reader when writing women, because I have been burned so many times. And when a male author writes something that's seriously problematic, and he gets nailed with

[daveamongus]

When you consider how many authors made it damn clear during RaceFail that they just don't give a shit about these issues, I'm not surprised.I'm both surprised and dismayed since I don't know of Wrede participating in the RaceFail discussions in any way--and even if she had internalized the arguments and vowed to strive for a new and aware tone in her work, the book would have been in the pipeline, probably at the printer by the time the discussion hit its peak. I know it feels like it's already a million years old, but in publishing terms, it's barely even happened. Not that that's an excuse, as such, but if RaceFail was a wake-up call to writers, writers are just standing up and stretching and looking around the room, a ways from getting anything out the door yet

[splash_the_cat]

I don't know that there's a way that I could adequately express a woman to a woman such that she was completely satisfied in the portrayal. And certainly not on a first outing.

That's a weaseley derail. Women are not a monolith. You will never completely satisfy all women, or even all women SF fans, in your portrayal of one or two women. Writing ANYTHING is always a risk. Not just women. Not just people of color.

But this kind of attitude makes me ten thousand times more apprehensive about doing so, and seems like the direct opposite of what folks like [info]zvi_likes_tv, Tobias Buckell, and Nalo Hopkinson have been saying.They are not the sole representatives of color these discussions, and there were a lot of people (women and POC) during RaceFail who made it very clear that they approach the genre much the same way I do

[daveamongus]

And I know that's not your intent. I do give you the benefit of the doubt, as you are my friend and I have a lot of respect for you. But if I didn't know you and read that comment? "What a jackass," would be the nicest of the things going through my head right now, and you'd have already lost me as a reader before you even started.

The point was that the comment was directed at you, and only you, through the filter of our friendship. Not a general defense of assholes like Levine, but a specific cry of of fear and apprehension as a friend seemed to be ready to shut me out and leave me to fend for myself in the wild should I displease her. I wouldn't make that comment in a conversation with anyone but a friend; when you invoked one of my personal labels (male SF writer), you took it to a personal level for me, and I responded from personal feelings.

[skywardprodigal]

Right this second, you're my favoritist woman in the whole world.

How would you like your internets?

[splash_the_cat]

May I have them à la mode, please? :)

[skywardprodigal]

Dulce-de-leche ice cream on 3-kind apple pie work for you?

[splash_the_cat]

That works fabulously. Yum.