A most interesting discussion, drawing some intriguing parallels. Would that put brat!Kennedy in the same role as Spike, though? Third lover, dangerous, oddly liberating, not necessarily for the long haul but necessary to counteract deep depression.
Pretty much, yeah? And, as much as I dislike Kennedy (and I feel M.E. didn't really develop that relationship enough for anyone to actually get behind W/K), she did give Willow confidence and allow her to open up to another person after the overwhelming loss of Tara. But there are definite parallels to Spike . . .
Interesting--I've never seen the point where Buffy's relationship with Riley took a downhill turn pinpointed before, but I think you're right. No matter what Buffy says, she'ss till looking at Riley as The Guy I'm Dating Because Angel Isn't Here.
Yes, exactly. And whenever she talks about Riley to her friends, other than noticing he has nice arms, it's usually in anti-Angel, rather than pro-Riley terms. She's dating Riley because he's "nice", he's "normal", he can "go out in the sun", he (like Parker) "has a reflection" . . .
I've just been rewatching S4, and I really noticed that almost every good thing she has to say about Riley involves his contrast to Angel. And watching Riley in The Yoko Factor just made me go Duh! That's the moment Riley realized she'd never love him like she'd loved Angel, and that he'd always be second best. You can see the start of his downward spiral in his eyes. And he has nothing symbolic (like the head-scarf McGuffin) to cling to any longer. He's basically given up on the relationship and faced the loss of her; when she comes back into the room he tells her that if she's going to break his heart, do it fast.
Plus, he tells her he loves her and she says, "tell me about it." Not, "I love you too," but "tell me about it." Right there you could tell. It's the most open she ever was with him and she still couldn't say the words.
Yep. When she did eventually tell Riley she loved him, it was usually in a throw-away manner. I think she loved the idea of Riley more than Riley himself, and that's a shame for both of them. I've also wondered if Buffy wasn't initially interested in Riley just because he seemed to be more interested in Willow than her? Buffy's always been competitive, and Willow was the one who sparked his interest in the university bookstore - he even referred to Buffy as 'Willow's friend'.
It's ironic really, when it's the crumbs given to Spuffy that are slammed that it's the continued kowtowing to Bungel that crippled the main character and the show. A story can't develop cleanly when it's hanging on for grim death to a dead limb.
Word! I'm in the process of re-watching the entire series in order and that really struck me - how Joss repeatedly called Bangel a doomed relationship, which was written that way on purpose, yet they kept bringing Angel back and dangling the carrot. I understand the initial decision; Angel was supposed to be gone when Buffy sent him to hell, but they had decided to spin off DB in his own show, so had to keep him under contract during S3. I even understand the initial crossovers during S4, when they were trying to encourage interest in AtS, but after "Sanctuary", there was no legitimate reason to keep bringing Angel backthat I could see.
Nothing but lots of agreement here, and a strained neck from all the nodding.
B/A was never about equality, because Angel never saw them as equals.Thank you! What never worked for me with B/A was precisely this--she was continually deferring to him or giving him a disproportionate say (even if you consider him merely an advisor, as she considered the Scoobies) when *she* was the Slayer. She needed to be in command because of her Slayer status, needed to develop her confidence in herself as a leader, but she also (and just as importantly) needed to develop her confidence as a woman growing into her own. She let him take the lead in their relationship because she was still young and figured he would know better--after all, he'd been doing it longer--but she knew *nothing* about him, who he had been as a human, or his darkest side as a vampire, until she had the truth bleeding everywhere but on her doorstep. In continually allowing the relationship to travel along the course he chose, she lost so many of the opportunities to make
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but she knew *nothing* about him, who he had been as a human, or his darkest side as a vampire, until she had the truth bleeding everywhere but on her doorstep. In continually allowing the relationship to travel along the course he chose, she lost so many of the opportunities to make the decisions that would inch her closer to adulthood and to being able to make those choices that Willow made in moving on.
I think that was my biggest problem with Angel's reappearance in EoD/Chosen. If one only watched BtVS, it may have made sense (and really pointed up how many opportunities for growth she was denied), but to people who watched both shows, it was a definite WTF??? moment. To go from Angel's intense scenes with Lilah and Connor to that? Made my head hurt. I know various people have tried to wank that scene as Angel being so stressed out that seeing Buffy again was like a mental release - a short psychological break, if you will - so the reversion sort of made sense, but to most fans of AtS, it was so OOC it was painful
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I didn't watch AtS till this summer -- and wow, did it give me back my love for Angel the Character. I had loved him through S1 and S2 but in season three -- eh. Except in Enemies, when he is pretending to be evil, he really didn't seem to have much purpose. And in Enemies, it's very clear that he and Buffy are in the plot together. So I wasn't too sad to see him go.
When he showed up in EoD/Chosen, it didn't seem to make that much sense to me, aside from the neat tying up of bows, ending the series with those it started with. And after watching the end of S4 of Angel, well....how does Angel go from the loss of his son and Cordy and everything he knows to being silly, jealous, flip and smug in a cemetary with a woman he has clearly moved on from, both in his personal life and in his professional (...in a way? He's got his own purpose...yeah, that's professional, that's the word I wanted) life.
My feelings exactly. Except, that I didn't really love the character of Angel until AtS, although I did enjoy the appearance of BtVS s2 Angelus. Prior to that, the character of Angel was kind of meh, IMO. Aside from keeping DB under contract in order to spin him off the next year, I thought the most obvious reason for Angel's return in S3 was to show unequivocably that Buffy and Angel could never again have an on-going relationship. In early S1 AtS, they got their final chance in "I Will Remember You", when Angel was inadvertently made human and he made the choice to not have a normal life/relationship with Buffy - to not be the one who can take her 'into the sun', who can share the day-to-day ups and downs of a real relationship. He turned back time and made his choice (without ever asking for Buffy's input, which seems to be a pattern with him regarding choices that affect not only him, but others).
I loved the nuances of his character development on AtS. He developed his own mission, which as is shown so
( ... )
Boy, I sit down to my computer, and when I open my friendslist the discussion everywhere is all about ships!
Very interesting comparisons. My fist OTP (though i didn't know the term until much later) was Willow/Oz. I hadn't thought the situation though in the way you suggest, but I like your logic. (Even though it still boggles my mind that Willow would pick Tara when Oz returned! Oz! Came back
( ... )
ITA. However, in my many discussions (and the fandom project study) with A/B 'shippers, I must chime in that A/B-ers see Buffy and Angel as equals. I know: amazes me, too.
Also: I don't 'ship, but I do believe that, as SMG played it, Buffy never felt for Spike what she felt for Angel. Her expressions toward Angel and Spike in the last season of BtVS were contrary to what JW wanted; he's admitted in the Chosen commentary that Buffy loved Spike ---- but couldn't get the expressions he wanted from SMG AND from JM. Too little, too late, too much MN in S6.
I like your analysis, Lynne --- it's right on, for me.
as SMG played it, Buffy never felt for Spike what she felt for Angel.
I think you're right. Initially, in 'Something Blue', the B/S chemistry was electric. Although Spike fans thoroughly enjoyed the nekkid Spike of S6, apparently both SMG and JM were uncomfortable with MN's direction (and since JM has said he never had a problem with nudity prior to that, I think he was picking up on SMG's reactions).
I always find it amusing when the show's writers try and tell us what they meant for us to see, when we actually saw something completely different. And, IMHO, if JW wanted to show that Buffy really had grown to love Spike, he shouldn't have trotted Angel out for the big passionate kiss. Angel was no longer apart of her life; there was only one possible reason for his cameo (and it wasn't to pander to Spuffy shippers!)
I think you're right. Initially, in 'Something Blue', the B/S chemistry was electric. Although Spike fans thoroughly enjoyed the nekkid Spike of S6, apparently both SMG and JM were uncomfortable with MN's direction (and since JM has said he never had a problem with nudity prior to that, I think he was picking up on SMG's reactions).
Or it might have had something to do with the fact that JM and SMG were boning each other in season 4. Then she broke it off to marry Freddie because that was supposed to be better for her career, and JM didn't take it as well as she'd hoped. They always looked uncomfortable with each other on screen after that. At least when she was boning DB, she didn't have to keep working with him after it ended.
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Just sayin'....
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And interesting and complex, of course.
I hadn't really thought of Kennedy in those terms before, but it certainly makes sense that way.
Thank you!
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I've just been rewatching S4, and I really noticed that almost every good thing she has to say about Riley involves his contrast to Angel. And watching Riley in The Yoko Factor just made me go Duh! That's the moment Riley realized she'd never love him like she'd loved Angel, and that he'd always be second best. You can see the start of his downward spiral in his eyes. And he has nothing symbolic (like the head-scarf McGuffin) to cling to any longer. He's basically given up on the relationship and faced the loss of her; when she comes back into the room he tells her that if she's going to break his heart, do it fast.
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It's ironic really, when it's the crumbs given to Spuffy that are slammed that it's the continued kowtowing to Bungel that crippled the main character and the show. A story can't develop cleanly when it's hanging on for grim death to a dead limb.
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B/A was never about equality, because Angel never saw them as equals.Thank you! What never worked for me with B/A was precisely this--she was continually deferring to him or giving him a disproportionate say (even if you consider him merely an advisor, as she considered the Scoobies) when *she* was the Slayer. She needed to be in command because of her Slayer status, needed to develop her confidence in herself as a leader, but she also (and just as importantly) needed to develop her confidence as a woman growing into her own. She let him take the lead in their relationship because she was still young and figured he would know better--after all, he'd been doing it longer--but she knew *nothing* about him, who he had been as a human, or his darkest side as a vampire, until she had the truth bleeding everywhere but on her doorstep. In continually allowing the relationship to travel along the course he chose, she lost so many of the opportunities to make ( ... )
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I think that was my biggest problem with Angel's reappearance in EoD/Chosen. If one only watched BtVS, it may have made sense (and really pointed up how many opportunities for growth she was denied), but to people who watched both shows, it was a definite WTF??? moment. To go from Angel's intense scenes with Lilah and Connor to that? Made my head hurt. I know various people have tried to wank that scene as Angel being so stressed out that seeing Buffy again was like a mental release - a short psychological break, if you will - so the reversion sort of made sense, but to most fans of AtS, it was so OOC it was painful ( ... )
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So I wasn't too sad to see him go.
When he showed up in EoD/Chosen, it didn't seem to make that much sense to me, aside from the neat tying up of bows, ending the series with those it started with. And after watching the end of S4 of Angel, well....how does Angel go from the loss of his son and Cordy and everything he knows to being silly, jealous, flip and smug in a cemetary with a woman he has clearly moved on from, both in his personal life and in his professional (...in a way? He's got his own purpose...yeah, that's professional, that's the word I wanted) life.
Very OOC.
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My feelings exactly. Except, that I didn't really love the character of Angel until AtS, although I did enjoy the appearance of BtVS s2 Angelus. Prior to that, the character of Angel was kind of meh, IMO. Aside from keeping DB under contract in order to spin him off the next year, I thought the most obvious reason for Angel's return in S3 was to show unequivocably that Buffy and Angel could never again have an on-going relationship. In early S1 AtS, they got their final chance in "I Will Remember You", when Angel was inadvertently made human and he made the choice to not have a normal life/relationship with Buffy - to not be the one who can take her 'into the sun', who can share the day-to-day ups and downs of a real relationship. He turned back time and made his choice (without ever asking for Buffy's input, which seems to be a pattern with him regarding choices that affect not only him, but others).
I loved the nuances of his character development on AtS. He developed his own mission, which as is shown so ( ... )
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Very interesting comparisons. My fist OTP (though i didn't know the term until much later) was Willow/Oz. I hadn't thought the situation though in the way you suggest, but I like your logic. (Even though it still boggles my mind that Willow would pick Tara when Oz returned! Oz! Came back ( ... )
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Also: I don't 'ship, but I do believe that, as SMG played it, Buffy never felt for Spike what she felt for Angel. Her expressions toward Angel and Spike in the last season of BtVS were contrary to what JW wanted; he's admitted in the Chosen commentary that Buffy loved Spike ---- but couldn't get the expressions he wanted from SMG AND from JM. Too little, too late, too much MN in S6.
I like your analysis, Lynne --- it's right on, for me.
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I think you're right. Initially, in 'Something Blue', the B/S chemistry was electric. Although Spike fans thoroughly enjoyed the nekkid Spike of S6, apparently both SMG and JM were uncomfortable with MN's direction (and since JM has said he never had a problem with nudity prior to that, I think he was picking up on SMG's reactions).
I always find it amusing when the show's writers try and tell us what they meant for us to see, when we actually saw something completely different. And, IMHO, if JW wanted to show that Buffy really had grown to love Spike, he shouldn't have trotted Angel out for the big passionate kiss. Angel was no longer apart of her life; there was only one possible reason for his cameo (and it wasn't to pander to Spuffy shippers!)
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Or it might have had something to do with the fact that JM and SMG were boning each other in season 4. Then she broke it off to marry Freddie because that was supposed to be better for her career, and JM didn't take it as well as she'd hoped. They always looked uncomfortable with each other on screen after that. At least when she was boning DB, she didn't have to keep working with him after it ended.
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