The need to call out homophobia

[sparkindarkness]

One of the many many things about homophobia that make me rage is how readily tolerated it is - and how ready people are to excuse it, defend it and deny it.

It saddens me that I need to repeat this  - but, if you think gay people are worth less than straight people, if you think we deserve less than straight people, if you think we don’t have the

Comments

[aviv_b]

You are 100% correct in your statements. I also agree with ashmedai and girlofavalon. That's why I asked if your comment in the last post was meant in a personal manner, particularly when you edited it to include a generalized statement about straight people.

I can certainly understand the frustration of having to deal with the nutfuckery of 'I don't hate gays but...' and the constant expectation that you'll be happy take any scraps that straight people are willing to let you have.

But over the top rage is an inappropriate response. And as I think this has been mentioned at least one other time on your journal that anger if used productively is a good thing but out of control rage is dangerous,more so for the rager than the target of the attack.

[sparkindarkness]

I think there are ways and degreses (I posted a huge arse comment to ashemadi with links and stuff to make for easy reading :))

On referring to straight people there's a multi-faceted point here, methinks:

On black blogs you will often see references to "whiteness". On some feminist blogs you may see references to "patriarchy" or even "men/maleness". And on gay blogs you may see references to "straights/straightness". In general this refers to a force in general (the general force that is privilege of that group) rather than a reference to every member within that group

There is also a degree of ignorance that privilege will always preserve simply by fact of not having the lived experience, and while that is not a bad thing, it is always something that needs remembering methinks

[aviv_b]

I've read all your responses and as always you have good things to say. One funny (ironic) thing I've noticed, is I've never, ever, seen any reference to 'gentile privilege' on a Jewish blog. Perhaps because hatred against us is so pervasive that we assume that everyone hates us. And this is a problem because here's what I do see

[sparkindarkness]

While there will be people who do react in that equivalent manner, they are generally few and far between. I think there is a lot of anger that non-GBLTs don't get and don't see the depth of it - or the depth of the hurt and it can be seen that way. But the number opf GBLTs who rush off in fury over very very slight things? Aren't all that common. It's unfortunate that they exiost, that they have been hurt and scarred so much that they resort to this - but I am far more leery of policing already marginalised people about reigning in anger and expresson in the face of offence and pain

[aviv_b]

Ok - I admit I'm being a little anal, but I want to make sure I understand

[sparkindarkness]

If you say, Elton John shouldn't support Limbaugh because RL is vile scum, racist, misogynist and homophobic and he should be shunned and persecuted - I'd agree and hail you

If you said "Elton John, as a gay man, shouldn't support a homophobe because he is betraying his community etc" then we're in dodgier ground you see

I can understand being irritated by that - but the problem is most people AREN'T like that. And writing off allydom because 1 or 2 people were arseholes is, well, not very allyish.

[aviv_b]

It is not cool for a straight person to say Elton John is a "sellout" for being a gay man who frequently plays with homophobes. The reason is the following: if being a marginalized body adds to the "hypocrisy" of John's actions, then there becomes a whole different set of standards that marginalized people are held to. It's one thing for a lgbtq person to make that assertion, but different when people who don't hold a marginalization dish out critiques of "self-loathing" on people who do.

Also I don't think it matters that you waited for a gay person to say it, as that is some version of the "well I know a gay person who agrees!" "ally" defense. The Human Shield move, if you will.

Say anyone who plays for him is gross for supporting a vile racist, homophobic asshole - but it's not a straight person's place to call John "self-loathing."

-Leah

[aviv_b]

Hello? Where did I say he was self-loathing? Please do not place words or ideas in my mouth. Frankly, this is exactly what I am talking about. I'm trying to get it right, but your only goal here is to criticize and belittle. I find your response extremely out of line.

[aviv_b]

Also this whole idea that "allies" feel attacked is getting to sound a little bit like that one Chris Rock sketch where he makes fun of white people who think it's "unfair" that blacks can say the "n" word. Rock basically says - how about this? I'll trade you the ability to say the "n" word for EVERYTHING whites have that blacks don't

[aviv_b]

Again, you are really out of line. My example is not fantastical. I stood at a Jewish Federation reception in Chicago in 2008 and listened to a fellow Jew say this to another attendee. EXACTLY THIS.

Unlike you, however, I don't expect anyone to tolerate being spoken to that way. I don't believe in collective guilt. And I don't expect some non-Jew to have to 'suck it up' and accept bad behavior because I or the person I was with have experienced prejudice. And yes, when the other Jewish individual walked away, I APOLOGIZED. Which I believe is the morally and ethically appropriate behavior.

Frankly, I think you owe me an apology. As an observant Jew I've experienced plenty of prejudice and it is disingenuous of you to assume that what I say is something made up. I wonder if you are adult enough to examine what you said, realize that YOU are the one out of line and make an amends.

[aviv_b]

Yeah, no, I'm a queer lady Jew and I have no idea where I would owe you an apology. And I don't believe in collective guilt either. Honestly, if I were at a Jew convention and someone wished me a Merry Christmas I would laugh, because I don't feel particularly oppressed as a Jew, but still, I have no idea why you would apologize for something you didn't even say.

-Leah

[aviv_b]

YOu owe me an apology for asserting that I was making up the story about the Merry Christmas.

And that fact that you would laugh - so what. Does that mean that someone isn't allowed to be hurt by being wished a Merry Christmas at a Jewish event. (Which is quite different from lashing out at the person who said it). Would you be OK if someone said to you "hey I'm gay, what are you feeling so butthurt about?"

You seem to have two standards - one for you and your marginalization and one for everyone else. If you want respect for yourself you need to give it to others.

And why would I apologize. If I have to explain...well that says it all doesn't it.

[aviv_b]

I *did not* say you were making up the story, I said the story was relatively unrelated to the conversation because of the reality that 99% of the time when one says something offensive the marginalized person sucks it up and adds it to your list. And me laughing doesn't mean I wouldn't take it seriously, it just means I wouldn't take the time - I've heard kike in my presence, I've been subject to lots of anti-Semetism. (and I'm not sure why being hurt doesn't give one the right to "lash out" - I think that other Jew's statements were totally in line especially given it was a Jewish event). I also laugh of tons of homophobia in the moment (Hey - this is the internet - I feel safer here where no one is going to beat me up or corrective rape me) - coping mechanism. Also, in your first response, you did "Fake ally 101" technique of responding to one part of my post without responding to the bulk. I don't want an apology from you, but I certainly don't feel the need to apologize.

[aviv_b]

Fantastical - MW - imaginary, unreal - so when you say my story is fantstical you are saying that it didn't happen. But you didn't bother to address this in your response. Pot, kettle I think.

Yes - its the old, - I don't agree with you' so you are a _____fill in the blank response. Ok - here's the answer to the first part of your response.

Sparky already answered my question and apparently he doesn't see things quite the same way as you do. Why don't you read his response and then you can correct him.

I was asking him a question to try to understand what is appropriate to say or not. Not really interested in you critiquing the question.

Do you realize that discussion in this thread has in part centered around the chilling effect that occurs when people get pissed on for asking questions?

Good work - I can't imagine anyone more qualified than you to prove this point.

[aviv_b]

Sparky and I disagree on quite a bit, so I'm not sure what your point is there. And do you realize that discussion amongst marginalized people about "allies" who complain about being "pissed on" for asking questions has really been dealt with quite a bit?

Honestly when I initially responded I meant to be firm but not particularly aggressive. And your use of the word "chilling," quite honestly, is something I have no respect for. Whatever effect it's having on you, it isn't "chilling."

[aviv_b]

You still haven't addressed the issue of your use of fantastical in one post and and your contradition in your next post "I never said you were making it up" as well as your contradiction as to whether you find such an incident as worthy of laughter or yelling. And I don't expect you will