The need to call out homophobia

[sparkindarkness]

One of the many many things about homophobia that make me rage is how readily tolerated it is - and how ready people are to excuse it, defend it and deny it.

It saddens me that I need to repeat this  - but, if you think gay people are worth less than straight people, if you think we deserve less than straight people, if you think we don’t have the

Comments

[sparkindarkness]

While there will be people who do react in that equivalent manner, they are generally few and far between. I think there is a lot of anger that non-GBLTs don't get and don't see the depth of it - or the depth of the hurt and it can be seen that way. But the number opf GBLTs who rush off in fury over very very slight things? Aren't all that common. It's unfortunate that they exiost, that they have been hurt and scarred so much that they resort to this - but I am far more leery of policing already marginalised people about reigning in anger and expresson in the face of offence and pain

Well with Elton John being a sellout - well I think he is. I also think that it's very difficult ground for a non-GBLT person to say that without it coming from the GBLTs first - because internal community policing (as it were) IS something

Now, that doesn't mean I don't think GBLTs can't be criticised - definitely not. Criticise them on arseholery, criticise on OWN privilege, criticise on anything due criticism. But a straight person criticising a GBLT person for internalised homophobia is on very uncertain ground. Just in the same way I would be very unwilling to criticise a woman on her internalise sexism or claim that a black person is betraying their cause.

I think your instincts there were correct - NOT because the GBLT community is overly sensitive to criticism - but because criticism on who is a "good" GBLT person and who is or is not forwarding or betraying the GBLT community HAS to come come the GBLT community itself. Any more than I, as a gentile, should ever criticise someone for being/not being a "proper" Jew. It isn't the place of non-members of a marginalised community to criticise people in that community for not doing it right

And frankly - if the allies said "hey have a nice life" over that... well are they allies? Are they fighting for GBLT equality because GBLT people shouldn't be treated as less because that is basic human decency?

Or are they looking for cookies and kudos? Because, if meeting some angry GBLT people is going to make them decide that it's not worth it - well, would any of us support any marginalised body?

And while I don't think you'd ever do stand up for the KKK, I would criticise you. I would criticise you because the KKK is a vile org, I would criticise you for supporting something that is truly repellent. I would NOT criticise you for being a bad Jew. I am not Jewish, it is not my place to say what makes a Jewish sellout.

(as an aside, I keep having the urge to write "Jewish person" rather than "Jew" and I'm not sure whether I'm being random there or not)

[aviv_b]

Ok - I admit I'm being a little anal, but I want to make sure I understand.

If I'm criticizing Elton John's decision because Rush Limbaugh is a vile disgusting person, that does not contain the same element of judgment as calling him a sell-out..right? I see that.

Is it problematic to say that I have a problem with EJ playing for RL because he's an evil vile person who hates GLBT? Not including that seems like ignoring the big pink elephant in the room, but maybe the elephant is so obvious that it doesn't need to be mentioned.

Signed...clueless in Chicago

PS - I don't agree with your assumption that if people get tired of over the top criticism that they weren't good allies to begin with.

Who wants to wish someone "Merry Christmas" and be told, and I quote, "It may be merry for you, but my people have been persecuted by Christians ever since your religion started, so it isn't merry to me."

I wouldn't blame the person on the receiving end thinking that maybe their time and money might be better spent elsewhere. Its not about cookies and kudos, its about respecting people who may not always get things right, but are trying.

[sparkindarkness]

If you say, Elton John shouldn't support Limbaugh because RL is vile scum, racist, misogynist and homophobic and he should be shunned and persecuted - I'd agree and hail you

If you said "Elton John, as a gay man, shouldn't support a homophobe because he is betraying his community etc" then we're in dodgier ground you see

I can understand being irritated by that - but the problem is most people AREN'T like that. And writing off allydom because 1 or 2 people were arseholes is, well, not very allyish.

[sparkindarkness]

It is not cool for a straight person to say Elton John is a "sellout" for being a gay man who frequently plays with homophobes. The reason is the following: if being a marginalized body adds to the "hypocrisy" of John's actions, then there becomes a whole different set of standards that marginalized people are held to. It's one thing for a lgbtq person to make that assertion, but different when people who don't hold a marginalization dish out critiques of "self-loathing" on people who do.

Also I don't think it matters that you waited for a gay person to say it, as that is some version of the "well I know a gay person who agrees!" "ally" defense. The Human Shield move, if you will.

Say anyone who plays for him is gross for supporting a vile racist, homophobic asshole - but it's not a straight person's place to call John "self-loathing."

-Leah

[aviv_b]

Hello? Where did I say he was self-loathing? Please do not place words or ideas in my mouth. Frankly, this is exactly what I am talking about. I'm trying to get it right, but your only goal here is to criticize and belittle. I find your response extremely out of line.

[sparkindarkness]

Also this whole idea that "allies" feel attacked is getting to sound a little bit like that one Chris Rock sketch where he makes fun of white people who think it's "unfair" that blacks can say the "n" word. Rock basically says - how about this? I'll trade you the ability to say the "n" word for EVERYTHING whites have that blacks don't.

Point being that I DO think an "ally" (which never should be a self-identification, ever) understands that they are going to fuck up and have their feelings hurt a bit. A think an ally takes the time to think about what might be causing the anger. But more to the point, I think these "well what about the Jew who freaks out everytime someone says Merry Christmas" example is a little fantastical and off-point. Allies should remember the following: For every time a marginalized person gets pissed off at them, there were about 50 situations where the "ally" said something offensive and hurtful and the marginalized person just sucked it up and added it to the list of other fucked up things he or she heard that day.

-Leah

[aviv_b]

Again, you are really out of line. My example is not fantastical. I stood at a Jewish Federation reception in Chicago in 2008 and listened to a fellow Jew say this to another attendee. EXACTLY THIS.

Unlike you, however, I don't expect anyone to tolerate being spoken to that way. I don't believe in collective guilt. And I don't expect some non-Jew to have to 'suck it up' and accept bad behavior because I or the person I was with have experienced prejudice. And yes, when the other Jewish individual walked away, I APOLOGIZED. Which I believe is the morally and ethically appropriate behavior.

Frankly, I think you owe me an apology. As an observant Jew I've experienced plenty of prejudice and it is disingenuous of you to assume that what I say is something made up. I wonder if you are adult enough to examine what you said, realize that YOU are the one out of line and make an amends.

[sparkindarkness]

Yeah, no, I'm a queer lady Jew and I have no idea where I would owe you an apology. And I don't believe in collective guilt either. Honestly, if I were at a Jew convention and someone wished me a Merry Christmas I would laugh, because I don't feel particularly oppressed as a Jew, but still, I have no idea why you would apologize for something you didn't even say.

-Leah

[aviv_b]

YOu owe me an apology for asserting that I was making up the story about the Merry Christmas.

And that fact that you would laugh - so what. Does that mean that someone isn't allowed to be hurt by being wished a Merry Christmas at a Jewish event. (Which is quite different from lashing out at the person who said it). Would you be OK if someone said to you "hey I'm gay, what are you feeling so butthurt about?"

You seem to have two standards - one for you and your marginalization and one for everyone else. If you want respect for yourself you need to give it to others.

And why would I apologize. If I have to explain...well that says it all doesn't it.

[sparkindarkness]

I *did not* say you were making up the story, I said the story was relatively unrelated to the conversation because of the reality that 99% of the time when one says something offensive the marginalized person sucks it up and adds it to your list. And me laughing doesn't mean I wouldn't take it seriously, it just means I wouldn't take the time - I've heard kike in my presence, I've been subject to lots of anti-Semetism. (and I'm not sure why being hurt doesn't give one the right to "lash out" - I think that other Jew's statements were totally in line especially given it was a Jewish event). I also laugh of tons of homophobia in the moment (Hey - this is the internet - I feel safer here where no one is going to beat me up or corrective rape me) - coping mechanism. Also, in your first response, you did "Fake ally 101" technique of responding to one part of my post without responding to the bulk. I don't want an apology from you, but I certainly don't feel the need to apologize.

[aviv_b]

Fantastical - MW - imaginary, unreal - so when you say my story is fantstical you are saying that it didn't happen. But you didn't bother to address this in your response. Pot, kettle I think.

Yes - its the old, - I don't agree with you' so you are a _____fill in the blank response. Ok - here's the answer to the first part of your response.

Sparky already answered my question and apparently he doesn't see things quite the same way as you do. Why don't you read his response and then you can correct him.

I was asking him a question to try to understand what is appropriate to say or not. Not really interested in you critiquing the question.

Do you realize that discussion in this thread has in part centered around the chilling effect that occurs when people get pissed on for asking questions?

Good work - I can't imagine anyone more qualified than you to prove this point.

[sparkindarkness]

Sparky and I disagree on quite a bit, so I'm not sure what your point is there. And do you realize that discussion amongst marginalized people about "allies" who complain about being "pissed on" for asking questions has really been dealt with quite a bit?

Honestly when I initially responded I meant to be firm but not particularly aggressive. And your use of the word "chilling," quite honestly, is something I have no respect for. Whatever effect it's having on you, it isn't "chilling."

[aviv_b]

You still haven't addressed the issue of your use of fantastical in one post and and your contradition in your next post "I never said you were making it up" as well as your contradiction as to whether you find such an incident as worthy of laughter or yelling. And I don't expect you will.

My point about Sparky is that you obviously disagree with his advice, but you opt to lecture me in your 'firm' tone as if I were a child or perhaps your dog. That is not acceptable conduct. If you think his answer was off, let's discuss why you think the answer is a poor one. Perhaps you are unaware, but your tone comes across as beligerant and dismissive. Your goal appears to be in the nature of "I'm right, your wrong, a bad ally a phony, etc."

Of course you see nothing wrong with humiliating someone for the terrible, terrible mistake of wishing someone Merry Christmas. Do you actually think there was any active learning going on there? What if my friend had said, 'you know, a Jewish Federation Event might be a good place to wish people Happy Chanukah.' See? Same message conveyed, but in a way that doesn't insult or blame the speaker for every bad thing that's ever happened to the Jewish people. I guess I'm with ashmedai that like it or not, we all end up being representatives for our group.

At the end of the day, we all have to decide, as my mother says, 'do you want to be right, or do you want to have peace?' I think its fine to chose either one depending on the circumstance. But the problem comes when people are unable to distinguish between the two. In the need to be 'right' they often end up shooting their friends as well as their enemies. Hey if you use all your ammo on me,what have you got left for the people who would like nothing better than to see you persecuted and abused?

[sparkindarkness]

I fail to see how laughing and yelling are oppositional responses. If I hear a kid say an anti-gay slur, I could act confrontational or I could laugh it off as a coping mechanism despite being disgusted by the phenomenon of kids saying anti-gay slurs. And while I passionately disagree with him often, I also, really, fail to see how in this case disagreed very substantially with Sparky.

And no - I'm not going to address my use of "fantastical," being that you chose to focus exclusively on one use of poor word choice instead of addressing the substance of my initial responses. And no - I'm not going to apologize, and I find it quite entitled that someone who on another post asked Sparky, a gay man, to clarify that he was not talking about "all straight people" when he alluded to straightness. *That*, to me, is "Shit You Don't Do 101." In fact, you have used several entirely typical derailing techniques in these posts.

Honestly, my initial intention was to offer another lgbtq perspective on the issue, one that I actually believed to be fairly in the vicinity of Sparky's response but just with a different perspective. And as to your last paragraph? Look, I actually think very often, in deep personal relationships between people of different marginalizations, the idea of x-"isms" is used inappropriately. And yeah, people go overboard sometimes to the extent of policing, but they actually do it moreso to people within their own marginalization who have different views or modes of being than they do it to people who do not share the marginalization. I think lgbtq people policing lgbtq people is a MUCH more interesting phenomenon than the *preciously* rare lgbtq people policing straight people.

But on a blog where we're talking about marginalizations? Yeah. Yeah, I expect the people who don't share them to suck it up and think about their own defensiveness in those spaces when people get pissed off.

And if you or anyone else extends my perceived cunty-ness to other lgbtq people, thats their homophobia, *not* the way I've "represented" anyone. I *do not care* about people who would see me, even if I were being a raging asshole (which I do not think I'm being), as a representative of my group. Call me idealistic, but the people who would see me as representative? Well, *anyone* who would do that is an "ally for cookies."

(And newsflash: The "nice" gays who will give you your straight ally cookies? The gays who pimp straight allies in college groups like they are the coming of the savior? Well, a good percentage of those lgbtq people harbor burning, burning resentment for those "allies.")

-Leah

[aviv_b]

My first instinct was to respond in kind, but I choose peace over rightness.

I know you will not understand this, but I am sorry that something has hurt you so badly that you feel the need to lash out at anyone who in anyway doesn't validate your opinion.

In the end you have to live with the consequences of your anger. No one else does, no one else will.

Yes, your life will be impacted unfairly by prejudice. It might be because you are gay, or Jewish or female or any other quality that sets you apart. Or all of them. And unfortunately, there is very little you can do about that.

But it will be impacted a great deal more by your own attitudes, prejudices and values and behaviors. And that is completely in your control and your responsibility. "Person with combative behavior no one wants to interact with" is not a protected class.

So, do you want (or need) to be 'right', or do you want (or need) 'peace'? Its your choice.

[sparkindarkness]

"My first instinct was to respond in kind, but I choose peace over rightness."

Taking the ethical high road is kinda like being kind. It's for your audience to decide. Cuz if one has to SAY that they are doing so, chances are.......

(And that comment, btw, is me decidedly *not* taking the ethical high ground. But, you see, I'm in my laughing mode now - Was in the yelling one before)