A tale of an epic

[solo]

It started on a dark and stormy July noon (hey, it's Scotland, we get those) in 2008.

The cast:

solo____ - Akame fan since April 2008. Overdosed on concerts and 2006-2007ish talk show material.
jo_lasalle - Akame fan since May 2008. Catching up fast.

The catalyst:





The discussion:

Session Start (287102841:Jo): Mon Jul 21 12:26:06 2008
[12:49] Jo: okay, clearly I need help, but for some reason, Kame's bad hair in the host pictures? specifically the one where they're still dressed? HOT
[12:51] Solo: I think maybe wearing black/dark/nondorky clothes with it helps?
[12:51] Jo: ...or maybe Kame just gives good rent boy...
[12:52] Solo: in the corridor (or whatever that is) one, Koki looks like a homeless guy who just happens to have set up camp in this place where the hosts hang out.
[12:52] Jo: He really doesn't fit. (That is a good description.)
[12:52] Solo: like somebody is going to turn around any moment and say 'hey, somebody take this guy out of the picture'
[12:53] Jo: Even in the couch picture, I'm kind of going... who'd pick him?! (Though I also wonder about Jin's pants in that one. WTF high waist??)
[12:57] Solo: I wonder if Jin's strange pants are high-waisted boxers, like Ueda also has (where they don't look quits so odd, admittedly.)
[13:00] Jo: it's cheating anyway that there are only three (well, two, really) of those pictures
[13:01] Solo: not a respectable magazine at all.
[13:01] Jo: also, have I mentioned... okay, I KNOW I have mentioned it but bears repeating... there should be more whore!fic in this world!!!
[13:01] Solo: more whore!fic would be good, yes.
[13:01] Jo: or even hosts-with-occasional-ventures-into-prostitution!fic
[13:02] Jo: fandom is totally failing here.
[13:03] Jo: I can't quite make up my mind who'd be who, though, if I could pick and choose. I think it's not as fun if they're both in the business, and generally I like bottom!Jin, but OTOH Kame is SO HOT in those pictures
[13:03] Solo: well, you could have more than one story....
[13:03] Jo: in an ideal world...
[13:04] Jo: also, with whom would it be easier to get around the squick factor of johns?
[13:05] Solo: what exactly do you mean by 'easier to get around'? for the reader? for them?
[13:05] Jo: Kame is more messed up, so I think there's more leeway in the general messed-up-ness...
[13:05] Jo: for me the reader
[13:05] Solo: I think it would all depend on the setup.
[13:06] Solo: that's kind of what I was about to say anyway but didn't quite get around to. In this fandom, I think the problem is that you'd really need to go AU and make it fairly long to make it work. It's not like SPN where you can simply slot it into the existing universe and make it 3000 words.
[13:06] Jo: I am a very poor bunny in that I have a huge thing for whore!fic but am totally and on various levels grossed out by RL johns.
[13:07] Solo: unless you really do want to assume that one of them goes out and turns tricks for fun.
[13:07] Solo: or that Johnny's salary is *that* low.
[13:07] Jo: that would be fun. I mean, Kame can't even afford to go to the hairdresser!
[13:08] Solo: that's right. And next time... NEXT TIME!!! He decides that rather than risk something like that perm again, he'd rather spend a night sucking guys off so he can afford to get it done professionally.
[13:08] Jo: but yeah, generally I agree, of course AU and probably long (though Soundczech pulled it off at a reasonable length)
[13:09] Jo: so how does Jin's solidarity perm fit into this?
[13:10] Solo: well, at this point it doesn't have to, since Kame didn't work for his own perm, either. Jin may just have done his own, too, or persuaded Junno to help or whatnot.
[13:10] Solo: Damn. Junno worms his way into everything these days.
[13:11] Jo: no, you don't *have* to fit it in
[13:12] Solo: but! he could find out how Kame is planning to pay for his styling adventure, and offer to help out? And maybe they can have a friendly little contest, like, who can bring in the most money between 11pm and 3am on a particular night?
[13:13] Jo: but! but! that is so fluffy! wouldn't Jin want to SAVE Kame from doing something so desperate?? (I'm demanding in my whore!fic needs. I don't need them bleeding in the gutter all the time, but 'doing tricks for fun' just doesn't have the same vibe to it.)
[13:13] Solo: yeah, okay. I prefer the dark stuff, too.
[13:14] Solo: but in that case, rewind aaaaaaaaallll the way to pre-perm speculations because that's where it already enters crack territory. :-)
[13:15] Solo: I really don't know why one of them would do it in the present universe, unless they were really *that* messed up. For which, I think, only Kame qualifies. Jin would have to have... more tangible reasons, but I can't think of any (much as I'd love to).
[13:16] Jo: no, no, I don't think going from being in KT to whoring is really doable
[13:21] Solo: so, anyway, KAT-TUN =/= whorefic....
[13:22] Jo: AUUUUUUuuuuuuu
[13:22] Solo: and soft skin boys is over 7000 words long, just saying. AND it doesn't even ping me really truly as whorefic, if that makes any sense.
[13:23] Solo: (I just realize it probably doesn't, given that it *is* whorefic. Never mind me.)
[13:24] Jo: no, I think I get what you mean. it's not actually a proper wallow on how sordid and dark and angsty it all can be... (and it takes the Pretty Woman premise where it's not actually dark between the two people involved -- it's on the extreme end of avoiding the john squick by setting the john up as... not *really* a john)
[13:26] Solo: yes, exactly (about the pretty woman thing)
[13:26] Solo: it's a sweet little story where one of them happens to be a whore. :-)
[13:28] Jo: and... hm. okay, ignoring that I have no time for anything of the sort, I wonder how one *would* set that up: get the maximum amount of angst but leave open the possibility of a happy ending (which means allowing for some sympathy with the john)? or is that what you mean by "in this universe" --> it would have to be some dystopian/faux-historical thing?
[13:34] Solo: What I meant by 'in this universe' was that I can't see either of them, while a famous Japanese pop star, also turning tricks on the side. So they'd have to be something else. Or at least one of them, the one who is a whore, would have to. Whether whoring is his full-time occupation or not is a different question.
As for the rest, two possible configurations:
1) is the other one of the pairing the john? if so, yes to the difficulty of making sure there's some sympathy (and also yes to the difficultly of avoiding soundczech's scenario)
2) is the john somebody else entirely, maybe several, simply unconnected people who happen to be buying sex, and the other half of the pairing is unrelated to that, or tangentially related, and can be as sympathetic as you like?
I'd probably go for the second option, as easier. but it may not be what you are looking for.
[13:37] Jo: Or... you could mix them up a bit. Generally have scenario 2, but when, oh, say, Jin, who is mixing drinks at this host club where Kame is a host-and-other-services-after-hours, just can't take the longing anymore and offers to pay for it, and then it all gets messed up and sad... but he's been so supportive earlier on and Kame is messed up too about this nice guy blah blah that it doesn't make him totally unlikeable?
[13:37] Jo: (I agree totally on the pop star thing.)
[13:37] Solo: yeah, that could work, too.
[13:38] Jo: Brought to you by the fact that Jin almost looks like he's keeping the books in that corridor shot.
[13:38] Solo: LOL
[13:39] Jo: (while being the hottest bookkeeper ever, of course)
[13:39] Solo: or he's the one they reserve for the ladies who like an intellectual. (and he get told "Just keep your mouth shut, okay?")
[13:39] Jo: or that...
[13:40] Solo: Jin could also simply be somebody who knows Kame from someplace else, and happens to find out somehow.
[13:40] Solo: they could both be university students, for instance.
[13:41] Jo: though... okay, no, that would actually bring them *too* close in what they do. (no, I have no clue about the hows and whys of my whore!fic needs, I'm making it up as I go along)
[13:41] Solo: and Kame tops up his income with this, or pays his way through college....
[13:42] Solo: and Jin likes him anyway and thinks, rather me than all those other guys, and from there pretty much into your scenario above.
[13:53] Jo: or maybe Kame just didn't make it in university, and had to drop out, and now has huge debts and nothing to show for it and a family that doesn't talk to him, and he's worked part-time as a host while in uni but now he's really desperate and kind of messed up by the whole failure thing, and he meets Jin because one of his regulars is a rich kid at university who's sort of keeping him on the side...
Session Close (Jo): Mon Jul 21 15:07:41 2008

Session Start (287102841:Jo): Mon Jul 21 19:02:15 2008
[20:33] Jo: btw, I almost sent you a text from work (but then restrained myself) when I was on the bike thinking about whore!fic, and the way things played out it was almost exactly the same underlying dynamic as in my WIP, only with more sex and dark. that was totally weird! (I mean, it makes sense, personal fanon and all, but I didn't even *notice* at first)
[20:33] Solo: I have absolutely no problem with things playing out the same way over and over (only darker and with more sex) in different scenarios. :-)
[20:34] Solo: and texts are good. *g*
[20:35] Solo: I spent a little time thinking about how to get *Jin* whore!fic and found that that was a lot more difficult.
[20:35] Solo: (it also made me realize just how much disbelief I'm suspending for that cute soundczech story.)
[20:36] Jo: yes. it would be harder, wouldn't it?
[20:36] Solo: yep. it might be impossible. Because really? I think Jin simply wouldn't.
[20:37] Solo: Unless you create some really extreme situation, that is.
[20:37] Jo: though, hm. you could give him a more simple messed-up-ness (worthlessness issues) and tweak the outside circumstances
[20:38] Solo: Yeah, you could give him that, but I'm not sure I'd buy it that easily. Jin, general worthlessness issues? Show me them.
[20:39] Solo: I think it's possible to do if you tweak any aspect of his character away from the way I currently 'understand' it. But leaving that character intact, I run into problems. Whereas with Kame, the way he seems to compartmentalize much more than Jin gives a hell of a lot more leeway right from the start.
[20:40] Solo: Kame could do it and still look in a mirror. Jin... couldn't, unless the motivation was a real killer. IMO.
[20:42] Jo: okay, it would *probably* have to be a sort of sneaky slide into prostitution, and then something slightly traumatic (be it just the realisation what what he's been doing was). And poverty. This being the vague directions I'd take.
[20:42] Solo: hm, how would that slide start?
[20:42] Jo: or... hang on, something else, but I need to think about this one...
[20:43] Solo: Poverty... not sure. Not sure. Not unless there's drugs, too, which would generally lower inhibitions.
[20:43] Jo: okay, second version: hanging out with the wrong friends.
[20:44] Jo: I think I'm generally thinking, getting him there for the first time is the problem. After that, the mirror thing gets easier for the writer. (If not for Jin...)
[20:45] Jo: Okay, I don't mean poverty in the sense of, oh, I'm poor, what could I do... Just as an added factor... okay, gah. ONE MOMENT. Brain, sort yourself.
[20:45] Solo: okay, that seems... less impossible. (the 'wrong friends' thing). It still wouldn't explain why he doesn't STOP again. (re mirror thing.) why wouldn't he? the sooner, the better, and preferably never ever think about it again and move to a different city where he will never see those people again?
[20:46] Solo: Seriously, I think he'd hate himself.
[20:46] Solo: And anybody who's even remotely connected with it.
[20:46] Jo: Slide: begins with love. It would be easier if Jin read as slightly gayer, but I think that ought to be tweakable.
[20:47] Jo: The problem with putting it all together is that I sound like the worst sort of romance novel, wrong side of the tracks and everything. :-)
[20:48] Solo: yeah, re love. But continuing? why? That's where we hit the extreme situation thing. I can see how he'd do it if there was some real, incontrovertible need to, but building that up... unless you want dying little brothers and stuff....
[20:50] Jo: No, but that's where the poverty and the wrong side of the tracks come in. Assume he's got the kind of life where you *can't* just pack up and go (doesn't have to be a dying brother, can be regular old family). Assume all around him are the kids from his youth leading not very pleasant *or* necessarily honorable lives. Half of them have awful, mind-numbing jobs, when they have work, the other half has to do with drugs or beating people up for money... and now he's got a certain kind of lifestyle (not rich, just not *like that*) and it's easy and the rich guy who promised him heaven just trampled all over his self-esteem... so why not continue? doesn't matter anyway.
[20:51] Jo: And I'm not talking about Jin standing on the side of the road. Just... his number gets passed around.
[20:53] Solo: Well. See... okay, epic time. Because I really think you'd need time to build him up with an attitude of 'doesn't matter anyway'. I don't think that's one you could just give him out of the blue, the way things are right now. In a way that's also what I meant - tweak one thing: in this case, that particular attitude. But you have to tweak it, and you have to have build-up to justify that tweak. It's more difficult than with Kame, where you simply don't have to tweak quite so much.
[20:53] Solo: god, I don't know if I'm making sense. :-(
[20:54] Solo: I need to think about this more. It's just this ... really basic feeling that whoa, this is DIFFICULT with Jin, and I haven't quite managed to put it in words yet, I'm still circling around it somehow.
[20:55] Jo: I agree that it's harder with Jin than with Kame, if that wasn't clear. But I suspect I might be more willing to do the tweaking in my head and not need a whole epic before if an author presents me with it.
[20:57] Solo: oh, I don't need an epic if an author presents me with stuff, either. See soft skin boys - you didn't exactly hear me whining, did you?
[20:57] Solo: I enjoyed it a lot. I just don't. Um. *Believe* it. The way I 'believe' some other stories.
[20:57] Jo: Also, just as a point of consideration, and not that this is a cornerstone of my View on Jin or anything, but: the "more difficult" aspect notwithstanding, Jin *does* have a job where he does an awful lot of dumb shit he might not be that keen on doing. Which is NOT AT ALL the same as saying he's going to prostitute himself, I KNOW THAT, but I wouldn't be quite with you if this boiled down to Jin as a paragon of principle and FUCK YOU attitude. He's *relatively* speaking, that, but not absolutely.
[20:58] Solo: Oh, I know. :-)
[20:58] Solo: I really don't think the 'fuck you' attitude works in that job.
[20:58] Jo: No.
[20:59] Solo: I clearly need to think more about what I actually might mean.
[20:59] Solo: I know I mean *something*. :-)
[21:00] Jo: And... Kame is extreme, but right now there's also something about that kind of job and the need to please/be admired running round my head. But *I* can't quite put *that* into words yet. :-)
[21:01] Jo: (And why I think it might be relevant here, I mean.)
[21:01] Solo: we are so wonderfully coherent together.
[21:02] Solo: do you think the 'need to be please/be admired' is an argument against whore!fic, or one for? 'need to please' could be either, 'admired' kind of shades into maybe not so much with teh whoring. :-)
[21:03] Jo: Argument for whore!fic. Related to self esteem issues.
[21:03] Jo: ... someone who's like that is easier to crush? Something like that.
[21:04] Solo: Jin likes to be admired. He really, really enjoys it, I think. But I'm not sure he needs it as desperately as Kame does.
[21:07] Jo: No. But perversely, that's really not the angle I'd take with Kame. (You generally don't become a whore to be admired, I agree with your initial objection. :-) Hm, it's odd. With Kame it would be twisted, too, but maybe a more... rational kind of twisted? But if you mix up the admiration with love and then pull the rug out from under Jin, I think it would work even more effectively than with Kame.
[21:09] Solo: yes, to the rational kind of twisted. absolutely.
and yes, to the idea that the killer aspect for Jin would in some way be love, no matter how.
not entirely sure about the rest, I need to think about that, simply come up with some scenarios to go with the theory here....
[21:09] Solo: Kame could be very organized about it all. Probably keep account books and stuff.
[21:10] Jo: I'm offering you a friend who's doing the same thing and always sounds cool about it to throw into the mix to help the scenarios. :-) (I think the Yamapi thing in Soft Skin Boys is very clever, and it took me until today to realise why.)
[21:11] Solo: [still Kame] have a part time job somewhere doing something else, keep the two lives totally apart, simply be a different person while remaining completely aware that that's what he does, and figuring that this is all for the best, it works.
[21:12] Jo: Would also (taking my words back on admiration, but not really) get off on being the hottest of the hosts/most desired among the clients.
[21:13] Solo: absolutely. be best at whatever you do. During his day job, he's probably proud to be... oh, the fastest checkout cashier of them all or something.
[21:13] Solo: you do a job, you do it right.
[21:14] Solo: The Jin theory... I'm starting to feel really self-conscious about not really agreeing and not even having a decent alternative or even a decent rationale, so... I'm just going to go 'uh, maybe...' :-)
[21:14] Jo: right :-)
[21:14] Solo: though I can try. let me try.
[21:22] Solo: Argh, this isn't working. I keep not being coherent and deleting stuff. Sorry. :-(
[21:22] Jo: okay. :-)
[21:22] Solo: I will figure it out, and when I do, I'll let you know.
[21:23] Solo: it's one of those annoying instances where I just 'know' something (for myself, I mean - that doesn't mean I'm objectively 'right') and I have no idea how I know it, I just do, and eventually I will figure it out, it can just take a few weeks.
[21:23] Jo: it's not like this is an actually existing story that needs validation. :-) We can disagree about the fictional whore lives of pop stars. *g*
Session Close (Jo): Mon Jul 21 21:31:55 2008

( The outcome: The Same Deep Water As You, index page and chapter 1. Updates every Thursday. )

[There are currently
comment(s) on the Dreamwidth version of this post. | post a comment @ Dreamwidth]