(Untitled)
*hides face in hands* 5000something words. *questions own sanity*
Torchwood: Children of Earth - Ethics, narrative structure, and why I don't think that Ianto's death was meaningless, or homophobic; still not touching that debate, though. Well, mostly. Also some thoughts about Jack that just kinda happened. Um.
Many thanks go to alex_beecroft, who took the ( Read more... )
Torchwood: Children of Earth - Ethics, narrative structure, and why I don't think that Ianto's death was meaningless, or homophobic; still not touching that debate, though. Well, mostly. Also some thoughts about Jack that just kinda happened. Um.
Many thanks go to alex_beecroft, who took the ( Read more... )
Jack's heroism has always been been problematic on TW. I don't know if you've watched the extras on the S1 DVDs, but there's a cut scene between Jack and the original Captain Jack, and there's this bit of dialogue *quick copypaste*:
J: Do you have any regrets?
CJ: Hell, no. Okay, I could croak up there, but without death in the balance, there'd be no valour, no honour. All I can pray is I make it through this and die an old war hero.
J: You are a hero. To me.
That path, straight-forward heroism, is forever barred to Jack; for him it's always only someone else's life in the balance, except 'only' is the worst choice of words, because that part is the most painful and hardest to bear. But can you be heroic with/about someone else's life? A different kind of heroism maybe, living with that.
Ianto talked him into it, Jack is not willing to give him up for it, and Ianto would never have allowed his life to be bought at such a price, especially since I don't think he's forgotten that he's more or less responsible for two deaths already. That's part of what I love about TW, that it raises those really interesting questions...
Reply
But can you be heroic with/about someone else's life? A different kind of heroism maybe, living with that
Can living with your choices be counted as heroism? It's what Gwen's doing, after the 456. Because she is the one who has to stay put, doesn't run, and (presumably) tries to rebuilt after all the devastation.
Jack has to face the consequences of his choice (he doesn't die, but I'd argue that he does play with his own life - he chooses to carry through the act that will change his life completely and utterly in a way that no other thing could. He'll never reach hero on his terms - letting his life hang in the balance - but if you start equating heroism with the act of sacrificing everything you have for good, then it starts becoming much less clear.)
(I think this is one of the big Things with Jack and Ianto; Ianto knows that Jack's human, isn't a Hero in the straightforward sense, and never will be, but still thinks he's capable of being heroic and therefore should bloody well try and act that way, please. It's not a rose-tinted view that Jack IS perfect, it's a solid belief that Jack will do his best to do what's right. And Ianto's belief is similar to the Doctor's belief in his companions - that they are capable of being fantastic, no matter what their background is. And Jack craved that off the Doctor - got it off the Doctor eventually - but found it somewhere else in the meantime.)
Reply
I think it can.
he doesn't die, but I'd argue that he does play with his own life - he chooses to carry through the act that will change his life completely and utterly in a way that no other thing could. He'll never reach hero on his terms - letting his life hang in the balance - but if you start equating heroism with the act of sacrificing everything you have for good, then it starts becoming much less clear.
That's a very good thought - thank you. And it's so much harder, because it never ends for Jack.
it's not a rose-tinted view that Jack IS perfect, it's a solid belief that Jack will do his best to do what's right.
And Jack craved that off the Doctor - got it off the Doctor eventually - but found it somewhere else in the meantime.
I think you're perfectly right about how this is something Jack needs and is looking for in the people he falls in love with. I wonder (if that makes sense, considering he's a fictional character) if he's aware he's doing it, but the pattern is definitely there.
Reply
That's Jack's tragedy, for me; not that he loses individual people (although that's certainly sad for him), but that there's never any hope that he'll have a happily ever after. He'll outlive everyone, and lose them all.
I wonder (if that makes sense, considering he's a fictional character) if he's aware he's doing it
I think.. Jack craves people's admiration. So he's very prone to living up to people's expectations and to being easily led to get that acceptance/admiration. And I think, post-Doctor, when he's had the choice, he's tried to pick people that reflect the Doctor's ambitions (even Owen, for all he's a dick, is a bloody good doctor and tries to save people). And I think that's a deliberate choice. I don't think he deliberately picked out the one most likely to accept him for who he is to fall in love with, though - if anything, first series, he seems determined to try and become a person who'd be worthy of Gwen's innocence. Ianto seems more accident than design on Jack's part, honestly.
Reply
I always thought it was an interesting aspect that Ianto picked Jack as much as Jack picked him (also kind of necessary; because otherwise I suspect that wouldn't have gone any further than Jack/Gwen); but I think decision does come into it; or maybe more precisely the refusal to make a decision at first, leaving it up to Ianto whether or not he wanted to stay after CW? And choosing to (re)start a relationship with someone after such a major crisis is a sort of decision, too; maybe more so than the date offer in KKBB, IMO
I think what Jack... maybe admired on some level was that Ianto was willing to go this far for love.
Reply
...I'm not sure about admiration, though. Perhaps envy. If Jack did everything in his power to do something, or maybe change something, he'd be capable of terrible destruction. Jack has to draw a line somewhere, and say what he will do and what he won't. Ianto didn't show that kind of restraint because his powers were totally and completely human, and very innocent in his belief of what Lisa was. Jack can't do that.
Reply
Dead Man Walking would have been an interesting parallel to Cyberwoman, if it had been Ianto who died instead of Owen, like originally planned. It still is, in a way, but the connection would have been more striking...
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment