*hides face in hands* 5000something words. *questions own sanity*
Torchwood: Children of Earth - Ethics, narrative structure, and why I don't think that Ianto's death was meaningless, or homophobic; still not touching that debate, though. Well, mostly. Also some thoughts about Jack that just kinda happened. Um.
Many thanks go to
alex_beecroft, who took the
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It's far too long and complex for me to adequately comment upon, but the way you frame the tragedy and character arc is really good and well thought out.
This makes a very enjoyable and important piece of Meta... I'll probably be reccing just so you know :)
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Thank you, I'm glad you like it. :) Whenever I write something like that by the end (especially once I've hit 'post'...) I always wonder if I've got too wrapped up in my own thoughts and if it even makes sense to anybody else, so that's always good to hear.
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But you I feel you really hit the nail on the head here regarding the Tragic Epic thing and the ethical story being told here. I'd never considered Ianot's position as it related to Jack as being absolutist, but if you look at Ianto's character over the three seasons (especially as you framed it here) it makes so much sense!
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Enjoy La Drova! :)
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It's like you reached into my brain and made my thoughts articulate. I hadn't realised that it was the first time that Ianto's influenced Jack, but you're right. It is.
Jack's heroism does slip, though. When Ianto is threatened directly and Jack tries to backtrack on himself (and that's sort of heartbreaking, that Ianto talked him into it but Jack's not willing to give up Ianto for it.)
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Jack's heroism has always been been problematic on TW. I don't know if you've watched the extras on the S1 DVDs, but there's a cut scene between Jack and the original Captain Jack, and there's this bit of dialogue *quick copypaste*:
J: Do you have any regrets?
CJ: Hell, no. Okay, I could croak up there, but without death in the balance, there'd be no valour, no honour. All I can pray is I make it through this and die an old war hero.
J: You are a hero. To me. That path, straight-forward heroism, is forever barred to Jack; for him it's always only someone else's life in the balance, except 'only' is the worst choice of words, because that part is the most painful and hardest to bear. But can you be heroic with/about someone else's life? A different kind of heroism maybe, living with that ( ... )
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But can you be heroic with/about someone else's life? A different kind of heroism maybe, living with thatCan living with your choices be counted as heroism? It's what Gwen's doing, after the 456. Because she is the one who has to stay put, doesn't run, and (presumably) tries to rebuilt after all the devastation ( ... )
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I think it can.
he doesn't die, but I'd argue that he does play with his own life - he chooses to carry through the act that will change his life completely and utterly in a way that no other thing could. He'll never reach hero on his terms - letting his life hang in the balance - but if you start equating heroism with the act of sacrificing everything you have for good, then it starts becoming much less clear.
That's a very good thought - thank you. And it's so much harder, because it never ends for Jack.
it's not a rose-tinted view that Jack IS perfect, it's a solid belief that Jack will do his best to do what's right.
And Jack craved that off the Doctor - got it off the Doctor eventually - but found it somewhere else in the meantime.I think you're perfectly right about how this is something Jack needs and is looking for in the people he falls in love with. I wonder (if that makes sense, considering he's a fictional character) if he's aware he's doing it, but the pattern is ( ... )
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I studied archaeology, so the Greek tragedy approach came naturally to me, but it fits really well here. In fact it's hard to think about this story in other terms...
Oh, and I was being creepily stalkerish and went over & looked at your journal - would you mind if I friended you?
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Hah, I checked your lj too. You can totally friend me, I was going to ask the same. My lj isn't exactly a fascinating place, and sometimes I spend weeks without posting but I tend to read my friends list, even if I'm not the hugest commenter in lj land. :D
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I could say the same. ;)
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I can just maybe begin to imagine how frustrating it must be to have a story like that in your head and then having to think about whether you're 'allowed' to tell it because as a gay man you supposedly have some special responsibility not to kill the gay character.
I think you are absolutely right. If one truly wants a world of equality, then gay characters should be up for grabs just like any other character. If not, then only white men would be allowed to die. Otherwise, it would be sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.
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As for the homophobia debate, I think that's one of those cases where it's a legitimate discussion within the gay community, but when it's straight people telling a gay man what he's supposed to be allowed to write or not when it comes to gay issues... ouch. Not okay.
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