(Untitled)

[solitary_summer]

*hides face in hands* 5000something words. *questions own sanity*

Torchwood: Children of Earth - Ethics, narrative structure, and why I don't think that Ianto's death was meaningless, or homophobic; still not touching that debate, though. Well, mostly. Also some thoughts about Jack that just kinda happened. Um.

Many thanks go to alex_beecroft, who took the

Comments

[eumelia]

This is an incredible article.
It's far too long and complex for me to adequately comment upon, but the way you frame the tragedy and character arc is really good and well thought out.

This makes a very enjoyable and important piece of Meta... I'll probably be reccing just so you know :)

[solitary_summer]

*huge sigh of relief*

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. :) Whenever I write something like that by the end (especially once I've hit 'post'...) I always wonder if I've got too wrapped up in my own thoughts and if it even makes sense to anybody else, so that's always good to hear.

[eumelia]

Haha tell me about it. I wrote many a Meta (a lot about the Homophobia thing, because I was really pissed that fandom was trying to reduce Ianto's arc and character that way) about CoE which you can (I'm self-reccing here, oh the narcissism!) read if you like under my own Torchwood tag.

But you I feel you really hit the nail on the head here regarding the Tragic Epic thing and the ethical story being told here. I'd never considered Ianot's position as it related to Jack as being absolutist, but if you look at Ianto's character over the three seasons (especially as you framed it here) it makes so much sense!

[solitary_summer]

Love the icon, btw. :)

[un_crayon_rouge]

The DVDs I ordered still haven't arrived, I fear they may have gotten lost on the way *sigh*. Anyway, I'll bookmark this and read as soon as I've seen the thing.

[solitary_summer]

I was even considering to put in a warning note for you, because it's *very* spoilery, and I *really* don't want to tell you how you should watch it.

Enjoy La Drova! :)

[caladria]

Yes!

It's like you reached into my brain and made my thoughts articulate. I hadn't realised that it was the first time that Ianto's influenced Jack, but you're right. It is.

Jack's heroism does slip, though. When Ianto is threatened directly and Jack tries to backtrack on himself (and that's sort of heartbreaking, that Ianto talked him into it but Jack's not willing to give up Ianto for it.)

[solitary_summer]

Glad you liked it! :)

Jack's heroism has always been been problematic on TW. I don't know if you've watched the extras on the S1 DVDs, but there's a cut scene between Jack and the original Captain Jack, and there's this bit of dialogue *quick copypaste*:

J: Do you have any regrets?
CJ: Hell, no. Okay, I could croak up there, but without death in the balance, there'd be no valour, no honour. All I can pray is I make it through this and die an old war hero.
J: You are a hero. To me. That path, straight-forward heroism, is forever barred to Jack; for him it's always only someone else's life in the balance, except 'only' is the worst choice of words, because that part is the most painful and hardest to bear. But can you be heroic with/about someone else's life? A different kind of heroism maybe, living with that

[caladria]

It's sad, that heroism - as Jack sees it - is forever closed off to him. But I think a fundamental element of Torchwood - right the way through the three series - is looking at Jack and saying "hero or not?". Doctor Who puts him firmly in as a heroic sidekick, willing to be led, but not The Hero.

But can you be heroic with/about someone else's life? A different kind of heroism maybe, living with thatCan living with your choices be counted as heroism? It's what Gwen's doing, after the 456. Because she is the one who has to stay put, doesn't run, and (presumably) tries to rebuilt after all the devastation

[solitary_summer]

Can living with your choices be counted as heroism?

I think it can.

he doesn't die, but I'd argue that he does play with his own life - he chooses to carry through the act that will change his life completely and utterly in a way that no other thing could. He'll never reach hero on his terms - letting his life hang in the balance - but if you start equating heroism with the act of sacrificing everything you have for good, then it starts becoming much less clear.

That's a very good thought - thank you. And it's so much harder, because it never ends for Jack.

it's not a rose-tinted view that Jack IS perfect, it's a solid belief that Jack will do his best to do what's right.
And Jack craved that off the Doctor - got it off the Doctor eventually - but found it somewhere else in the meantime.I think you're perfectly right about how this is something Jack needs and is looking for in the people he falls in love with. I wonder (if that makes sense, considering he's a fictional character) if he's aware he's doing it, but the pattern is

[yehnica]

I really, really enjoyed reading this. I've thought about CoE in terms of Greek tragedy, but you actually went to the trouble of writing an essay that makes sense and is thought-provoking. And you filled my inner Aristotle fangirl with glee. I am so reccing this, btw. You write a mean analysis. :D

[solitary_summer]

Thank you! :)

I studied archaeology, so the Greek tragedy approach came naturally to me, but it fits really well here. In fact it's hard to think about this story in other terms...

Oh, and I was being creepily stalkerish and went over & looked at your journal - would you mind if I friended you?

[yehnica]

Ah archaeology, so cool. I'm a bit passionate about Greek literature, and it just so happens that I spent the last semester studying it, so I went there naturally as well.

Hah, I checked your lj too. You can totally friend me, I was going to ask the same. My lj isn't exactly a fascinating place, and sometimes I spend weeks without posting but I tend to read my friends list, even if I'm not the hugest commenter in lj land. :D

[solitary_summer]

My lj isn't exactly a fascinating place, and sometimes I spend weeks without posting but I tend to read my friends list, even if I'm not the hugest commenter in lj land.

I could say the same. ;)

[malinbe]

I agree a 100%. I loved CoE and thought it was absolutely brillant. And then you took every argment the fandom had against it and destroyed them. Great job.

I can just maybe begin to imagine how frustrating it must be to have a story like that in your head and then having to think about whether you're 'allowed' to tell it because as a gay man you supposedly have some special responsibility not to kill the gay character.
I think you are absolutely right. If one truly wants a world of equality, then gay characters should be up for grabs just like any other character. If not, then only white men would be allowed to die. Otherwise, it would be sexism/racism/homophobia/etc.

[solitary_summer]

Thank you. :) I admit I got a bit frustrated with some of the fandom reaction. I understand being hurt, because my first (and second) reaction was nowhere this distanced and analytical, but all the negativity and hatred really got to me and were a lot harder to deal with than the depressing aspects of the story itself.

As for the homophobia debate, I think that's one of those cases where it's a legitimate discussion within the gay community, but when it's straight people telling a gay man what he's supposed to be allowed to write or not when it comes to gay issues... ouch. Not okay.