so, i've written more than livejournal permits, so i have to post my response in two installments.
this was an interesting (if somewhat disjointed) "article," to use your word.
first of all, i have to say that i disagree that parallels are never drawn between the idea of "a woman as a piece of property" and "a woman being treated nicely by the man/woman* she is with." i won't say that these parallels are more or as common as the ones you wrote about, but they do exist. the term "trophy wife" comes to mind. a beautiful woman who is given everything she wants/"needs" by her husband, while her sole purpose is to be "good" and keep looking beautiful. not all [trophy] wives are actually treated well, but let's use the example of one that is. she isn't wanting for anything; she is comfortable and happy. she attends her husbands work parties and golf tourneys because she is beautiful and "men want to be with her and women want to be her." is she being treated as a piece of property?
also, i'm not sure i completely understand the point you're making with this observation.
*i'm sure you avoided this intentionally (and i can't altogether blame you, as it does open a rather large and touchy can of worms), but i feel the need to point out that things like this also apply to LGBTQ couples. i understand that you'd want to stick with "traditional" man+woman relationships, but i just wanted to acknowledge the fact that the social constructions (and they are just social constructions) of we consider "male" and "female" gender roles have an effect on the dynamics of LGBTQ couples/relations, too.
Re: a responseskepticalfaceOctober 3 2008, 01:42:19 UTC
continued from first post...
second, this statement confused me:
"Of course, i didn't know for the longest time that girls actually masturbated. Some do. Go figure."
"go figure" as in, "why would girls masturbate?" i don't quite understand your point. or even the way you view female masturbation.
further if, for men, "pleasure and procreation go hand in hand" how do you explain men masturbating?
you say, "A girl doesn't have to get pregnant to have an orgasm." i say, "a guy doesn't have to have his dick inside anyone to have an orgasm."
someone made a comment about orgasms serving as a sort of enticement for both men and women to have sex in order for procreation to happen. how true.
"But on the other hand, the female orgasm has nothing to do with procreation other than the fact sometimes it happens when she is procreating."
yeah... about that: until you are a girl having sex for the very first time (or ever, because for some it doesn't get much better), i really don't think you should talk about the female orgasm as if it were such an inconsequential thing. if a girl has a bad first time ("bad" usually meaning "painful" and sometimes meaning "shameful" and, in the worst cases, both) you better believe there needs to be something in it for her. enter female orgasm. it's not a coincidence, guy.
oh. and this bit:
"So when two people have sex, who really... is in control? The man, who does his thing probably not even thinking about procreation, or the woman who can have a good time whether she gets pregnant or not? I mean... orgasm doesn't do ANYTHING to help along the process. [1]
AND YES I KNOW orgasm isn't guarunteed for females, but they can of course do things to fix that problem. Like get a competent boyfriend."[2]
[1] as i stated above, the orgasm DOES do several very big things to help along the process, one of them being that it gives people a reason to want to do it. and also, what point are you trying to make between orgasms and power? that is unclear to me.
[2] trust me when i say, "you have a lot to learn about women." and any girls reading this, trust me when i say, "the way to fix that problem is not through your 'boyfriend' or whoever; it is through figuring out for yourself what works."
another excerpt: "It's interesting though that womens' pleasures are not even related to procreation." people who have commented have noted claims that the female orgasm can help ensure conception and, while that may be true, i still stick to what i've said above. also, here's something for you to ponder (since you hold the belief--unless something has changed--that the female orgasm is completely unrelated to procreation): the clitoris is the only organ in the human body whose sole purpose is pleasure.
also, i like how you oh-so-diplomatically mentioned that it might be you who stays home with the kids. "Now that women are working it's more difficult for someone to be home to be with the children." and why is that? yes, most often it is because people cannot afford for one parent to stay home, but let's not pretend that it isn't partially because a lot of men aren't willing to be "stay-at-home-dads."
i don't have a formal wrap-up at all (my brain is a little too fried at this point), but i just wanted to say that i appreciate your willingness to make this a dialogue.
Re: a responsesolidmixerOctober 3 2008, 02:15:14 UTC
Regarding masturbation: It surprised me to find this out mostly due to stereotypes, although it doesn't surprise me as much now and I probably injected more surprise than I should have there. While statistically there are at least less women who masturbate (or admit to it), it is still common and I didn't know that until i looked it up.
Ahem, off topic a bit. Finding out from girls near me actually changed my opinion, mostly because of the stereotype of "proper and mature" girls who wouldn't do that kind of thing, but my whole view of masturbation in general has changed since I found out, so i'm still deciding how exactly the issue resonates with me.
So when you say "i don't quite understand your point. or even the way you view female masturbation." I don't really think i have a set view either, so i probably shouldn't have gone there.
"But on the other hand, the female orgasm has nothing to do with procreation other than the fact sometimes it happens when she is procreating."
Did I actually say that? Wow that's pretty off.... And I hadn't really researched this in terms of writing the "rant", since it was really to serve no purpose other than to write down ideas. I'm finding a lot of people correcting me in that yes, orgasm does have a LOT to do with procreation. I was merely referring to the fact they aren't as directly linked such that orgasm leads to procreation.
"you say, "A girl doesn't have to get pregnant to have an orgasm." i say, "a guy doesn't have to have his dick inside anyone to have an orgasm.""
Really I should've switched it, and said "A girl doesn't have to have an orgasm to get pregnant." And I do agree with you but my focus was on when a girl and a guy have normal sexual intercourse... but hey, what's normal these days? It seems a lot of the set "Traditional" factors have changed, and thats very interesting to me.
"...enter female orgasm. it's not a coincidence, guy."
Regarding that whole thing, I don't disagree with any of it. I think it's actually a really valid point. Unfortunately, I sorta forgot what I was arguing so... okay?
[1] as i stated above, the orgasm DOES do several very big things to help along the process, one of them being that it gives people a reason to want to do it. and also, what point are you trying to make between orgasms and power? that is unclear to me.
Again, I was misinformed / talking about the fact it isn't guaranteed that girls will orgasm. Also, my point is unclear to myself, which tends to happen a lot. Again, this wasn't a work for arguing a point, this was a work for asking questions (And mostly to stimulate conversations like this, so thanks!).
Re: a responsesolidmixerOctober 3 2008, 02:26:54 UTC
Continuing...
[2] trust me when i say, "you have a lot to learn about women." and any girls reading this, trust me when i say, "the way to fix that problem is not through your 'boyfriend' or whoever; it is through figuring out for yourself what works."
HAHAHA i might need another message length to respnd to this one... Mostly I was joking about the competent boyfriend, or rather using the word "competent" out of context. I know very well that as with personalities, sexually women are all varied and very different in what they like and what works for them. Hence, I do agree with your "figuring out for yourself what works."
The reason I chose "competent" was it sounded funnier and I try to make a joke whenever I feel like it. The word I would've chosen had I been serious would be "sensitive" and for the same reason as above: All women are different, and it takes a boyfriend who would be willing to work with his partner to figure out what works and to make sure her experience is as pleasurable as his. Personally, I am of that mindset, because to me sex is about showing your love and affection for one another in addition to anything it may have for you personally. Sure it's fun (typically, i mean, i wouldn't know but looking at the average...) but it's about partnership and it is (or should be) more selfless than selfish.
It took me so long to write that last bit that I sorta lost the way I wanted to word it so I did the best I could, feel free to ask me more about it.
And my last point on this one, the "You have a lot to learn about women," I won't be egotistical and disagree because yes, I do know I have a lot to learn, but I will say that based on the fact that I WAS kidding about the competent part, I'm sure that I know a little more than you think (or at least, thought) i did.
And again, every woman / girl is different, and whomever I choose to date / marry i will of course need to learn about, and in my case, I REALLY want to know them well, not in only a physical sense, but hopefully in a level much deeper than that. A truly emotional, intellectual, and mutual affection for one another. Because deep down, that's what we look for, right?
Well most of us. I HAVE met guys that want that and I HAVE met guys who don't. Same could be said, I'm sure, of girls.
Anyway, to finish off...
another excerpt: "It's interesting though that womens' pleasures are not even related to procreation." people who have commented have noted claims that the female orgasm can help ensure conception and, while that may be true, i still stick to what i've said above. also, here's something for you to ponder (since you hold the belief--unless something has changed--that the female orgasm is completely unrelated to procreation): the clitoris is the only organ in the human body whose sole purpose is pleasure.
And the research I have done (and most of it was before the fact, actually, which is sorta sad i didn't consider some things) says that there's no PROOF that the clitoris is the organ that causes orgasm, but it's highly likely. Most of my skepticism is that yes, all women are different, and therefore it is hard to pinpoint where exactly orgasms come from.
As strange as you (i'm assuming you're female) are all strange, and bizarre, and all so different from one another, you are all so interesting and all worth learning about.
Re: a responsesolidmixerOctober 3 2008, 02:27:00 UTC
"also, i like how you oh-so-diplomatically mentioned that it might be you who stays home with the kids."
- Was this sarcasm? You say you like how i said it, but... the oh-so-diplomatically a bit throws me.
Anyway, in my life I see my to-be-wife as a partner, and I hope that all that we decide will be mutual. I hope to marry for true love and not money, and I hope very much that it lasts (though we all know it's work, not hope, that keeps it together).
Considering I'm on my way to being a musician, I might not keep normal hours and therefore, maybe during the day I would have responsibility of the kids. There's nothing wrong with that. Should my wife decide to work OR to stay at home, I would support her either way. But no matter what, i just thought I would make the point that I believe it's sad that sometimes children have to have so much time away from their parents. Not that they don't have time with their parents at all, but i think it's sad teachers get maybe a couple months of leave and then they're back to work, be they male OR female (I had a male teacher who had a baby, his wife was also a teacher.)
"i don't have a formal wrap-up at all (my brain is a little too fried at this point), but i just wanted to say that i appreciate your willingness to make this a dialogue."
Again, i VERY much appreciate the fact you took the time to reply, I've enjoyed this chat, even though it was quite... spaced out? If you would like to reach me further, which i would love to hear more from you, you are free to at Jromega3@gmail.com, omega3mixer on aim, or facebook, I will give out my name via email. Again i got a LOT of good response on facebook as this article was doubled there. I found only select people seem to read my livejournal still, and with all the college friends i've gained, they have some input i love to hear on facebook, though it's harder to reply to them there.
I must go, my friend is bugging me to go to dinner, so I'll talk to you hopefully again sometime. Again, thank you!
Re: a responseskepticalfaceOctober 3 2008, 22:42:17 UTC
hey,
i have to split this in two again...
thanks for clarifying some of those points. i'm starting to see a little better where you are coming from.
the majority of the first half of your comments i don't really feel the need to respond to... you pretty much wrapped up those points.
but, there are a few things i would like to say.
1.) i totally understood that you were joking about the "competent boyfriend" thing. i merely wanted to make sure to point out for anyone (ladies in particular) who doesn't know that you can't count on your partner (at least at first) to figure out or know how to get you off. that comes from knowing your body and understanding how it works, and then communicating that to your partner. you can't get that knowledge of your own body from another person. this is a really big deal for girls.
while there is a certain amount of pressure on guys not to masturbate, it is pretty much accepted that they, by and large, do. there might be a bit of a slap on the wrist (or something more severe, depending on upbringing, religion, etc.) for appearances, but it is generally understood and accepted that boys/men masturbate.
girls on the other hand....... as you said, you (and most of this society) didn't think they "do that kind of thing." i believe this society's--and many others'--view of female masturbation comes from a deep, deep fear of female sexuality, but that's another (enormous) discussion altogether.
...i'm trying to make a point here, and i think i might need to tell a quick story to get there, so bear with me.
i was talking a few years ago to a group of teenage girls. one of them was talking about an older (probably 20s) girl she knew. she told us that this older friend of hers is heavily pierced and even has (actual quote-->) "random parts of her vagina pierced." i was stunned. yes, they can pierce damn near anything these days (uvulas included), but this indicated to me that a problem i was already aware of is much worse than i thought. this teenage girl was seriously lacking knowledge about her own anatomy. as a guy you may have a difficult time understanding what i'm about to say and what it does to a girl/woman's psyche, but i think it's important for guys to hear about this as well. girls are taught--overtly and covertly--that getting their period is gross; that what is between their legs is territory that is not to be explored by anyone but their husband and not until their wedding night; that nice girls don't touch themselves; that, essentially, the women of the world are divided up into three groups--virgins, whores, and mothers--and "i don't think you need me to tell you which you don't want to be"; etc., etc., etc. do you get what i'm saying? we are taught to fear and loathe our bodies.
there is so much to say about this issue, and i don't have the time or energy right now to really get into it, so i will simply make a recommendation: read betty dodson. read her work, read about her. she is amazing. her most famous book is called sex for one: the joy of self-loving, which i highly recommend. but you should also, like i said, read about her. did you know that there are some sexologists/sex therapists out there that hold masturbation workshops? there are!! you'll probably find her quite interesting.
1.a.) another book i think you should probably read is cunt by inga muscio. as margaret cho said, "everyone who was born out of one needs to read cunt."
1.b.) i'm sure it's abundantly clear by now, but since i haven't stated it for the record: yes, i am female. (i'm lesley's sister, emily... i hope that doesn't make this discussion awkward for anyone.)
Re: a responseskepticalfaceOctober 3 2008, 22:47:35 UTC
continued....
2.) i didn't say that the clitoris is "the organ that causes the orgasm." i said that is the only organ whose sole function is pleasure. it's not an opposable thumb, we don't pee out of it, it doesn't help our balance. yes, it contributes to the orgasm (most women need clitoral and vaginal stimulation to achieve an orgasm) and, yes, every woman is different, but the clit is only there for pleasure. personally, i think that's pretty amazing. and all the more reason to (as immature and frat-boyish as it sounds) respect the clit.
3.) in regards to the "oh-so-diplomatically" comment. i really didn't mean that to be a direct dis to you, so i apologize that it came across as such. it's just that that particular statement is one of the ones that you hear lots of men say... without being completely sure they are in earnest. i mean, it's pretty easy to say the thing that you think someone wants to hear when you feel quite confident it'll never come to that.
3.a.) as far as children not getting optimal amounts of time with their parents... i think that has more to do with our society's obsession with work than anything. look at our work week and vacation allowances compared to those of other countries. it's insane. children are so incredibly important, and i wholeheartedly agree that it would be better if parents had the opportunity to spend more time with their kids.
so... yeah. that's pretty much all i have in response to your response to my response. if you get some time and happen to read either of the books i mentioned, let me know.
Re: a responsesolidmixerOctober 3 2008, 22:52:04 UTC
HI EMILY! It sure has been a while! I would send another lengthy response but i was in a scooter incident and sprained my hand O.o hard to type w/ only my right hand. i'll spare you the jokes, but you may make some if you want, considering our given topic.
And don't worry not awkward at all.
I just might check it out, but the looks i'll get when buying the book will be priceless ^_^
anyway, thanks, looking forward to reading your next half-response...
Re: a responsesolidmixerOctober 3 2008, 01:52:42 UTC
I'm going to write my reponses in order as compared to yours, except for this bit:
"i don't have a formal wrap-up at all (my brain is a little too fried at this point), but i just wanted to say that i appreciate your willingness to make this a dialogue."
And I would like to thank you in kind for your criticisms. This is exactly what I was hoping for (and had more success with on Facebook than here, apart from your response). I dunno if it was mentioned much in the article, but I was more interested in throwing these ideas out there, not proving anything. Most of me is "observations" which i might try to make seem like "assertions", and i'm quoting for, really i dunno why.
And yes, Trophy wives was the parallel given to me by someone else whom i had read the entire writing. So the questions I was mainly trying to answer, 1. Are women treated as objects in a nice way? Yes, IE Trophy wives, and 2. Does this mean that I personally treat them as objects? And for me the answer is no, because I don't regard them as either trophy wives or anything like that, I believe they are equal partners in terms of our relationship. The main conclusion I came to with my friend talking to me about this is that women are objectified if no respect is given to the fact that they have their own ideas, dreams, hopes, and their own soul.
And I'm not really making a point, i'm just making the point of asking the questions.
And I did avoid the LGBTQ couples, not for any reason except that I'm only specifically looking at male-female relationships. I have no quarrels with or against them, i just chose not to write about them. I'll continue more in response to your next article.
this was an interesting (if somewhat disjointed) "article," to use your word.
first of all, i have to say that i disagree that parallels are never drawn between the idea of "a woman as a piece of property" and "a woman being treated nicely by the man/woman* she is with." i won't say that these parallels are more or as common as the ones you wrote about, but they do exist. the term "trophy wife" comes to mind. a beautiful woman who is given everything she wants/"needs" by her husband, while her sole purpose is to be "good" and keep looking beautiful. not all [trophy] wives are actually treated well, but let's use the example of one that is. she isn't wanting for anything; she is comfortable and happy. she attends her husbands work parties and golf tourneys because she is beautiful and "men want to be with her and women want to be her." is she being treated as a piece of property?
also, i'm not sure i completely understand the point you're making with this observation.
*i'm sure you avoided this intentionally (and i can't altogether blame you, as it does open a rather large and touchy can of worms), but i feel the need to point out that things like this also apply to LGBTQ couples. i understand that you'd want to stick with "traditional" man+woman relationships, but i just wanted to acknowledge the fact that the social constructions (and they are just social constructions) of we consider "male" and "female" gender roles have an effect on the dynamics of LGBTQ couples/relations, too.
continued in second post...
Reply
second, this statement confused me:
"Of course, i didn't know for the longest time that girls actually masturbated. Some do. Go figure."
"go figure" as in, "why would girls masturbate?" i don't quite understand your point. or even the way you view female masturbation.
further if, for men, "pleasure and procreation go hand in hand" how do you explain men masturbating?
you say, "A girl doesn't have to get pregnant to have an orgasm."
i say, "a guy doesn't have to have his dick inside anyone to have an orgasm."
someone made a comment about orgasms serving as a sort of enticement for both men and women to have sex in order for procreation to happen. how true.
"But on the other hand, the female orgasm has nothing to do with procreation other than the fact sometimes it happens when she is procreating."
yeah... about that: until you are a girl having sex for the very first time (or ever, because for some it doesn't get much better), i really don't think you should talk about the female orgasm as if it were such an inconsequential thing. if a girl has a bad first time ("bad" usually meaning "painful" and sometimes meaning "shameful" and, in the worst cases, both) you better believe there needs to be something in it for her. enter female orgasm. it's not a coincidence, guy.
oh. and this bit:
"So when two people have sex, who really... is in control? The man, who does his thing probably not even thinking about procreation, or the woman who can have a good time whether she gets pregnant or not? I mean... orgasm doesn't do ANYTHING to help along the process. [1]
AND YES I KNOW orgasm isn't guarunteed for females, but they can of course do things to fix that problem. Like get a competent boyfriend."[2]
[1] as i stated above, the orgasm DOES do several very big things to help along the process, one of them being that it gives people a reason to want to do it. and also, what point are you trying to make between orgasms and power? that is unclear to me.
[2] trust me when i say, "you have a lot to learn about women." and any girls reading this, trust me when i say, "the way to fix that problem is not through your 'boyfriend' or whoever; it is through figuring out for yourself what works."
another excerpt: "It's interesting though that womens' pleasures are not even related to procreation." people who have commented have noted claims that the female orgasm can help ensure conception and, while that may be true, i still stick to what i've said above. also, here's something for you to ponder (since you hold the belief--unless something has changed--that the female orgasm is completely unrelated to procreation): the clitoris is the only organ in the human body whose sole purpose is pleasure.
also, i like how you oh-so-diplomatically mentioned that it might be you who stays home with the kids. "Now that women are working it's more difficult for someone to be home to be with the children." and why is that? yes, most often it is because people cannot afford for one parent to stay home, but let's not pretend that it isn't partially because a lot of men aren't willing to be "stay-at-home-dads."
i don't have a formal wrap-up at all (my brain is a little too fried at this point), but i just wanted to say that i appreciate your willingness to make this a dialogue.
Reply
Ahem, off topic a bit. Finding out from girls near me actually changed my opinion, mostly because of the stereotype of "proper and mature" girls who wouldn't do that kind of thing, but my whole view of masturbation in general has changed since I found out, so i'm still deciding how exactly the issue resonates with me.
So when you say "i don't quite understand your point. or even the way you view female masturbation." I don't really think i have a set view either, so i probably shouldn't have gone there.
"But on the other hand, the female orgasm has nothing to do with procreation other than the fact sometimes it happens when she is procreating."
Did I actually say that? Wow that's pretty off.... And I hadn't really researched this in terms of writing the "rant", since it was really to serve no purpose other than to write down ideas. I'm finding a lot of people correcting me in that yes, orgasm does have a LOT to do with procreation. I was merely referring to the fact they aren't as directly linked such that orgasm leads to procreation.
"you say, "A girl doesn't have to get pregnant to have an orgasm."
i say, "a guy doesn't have to have his dick inside anyone to have an orgasm.""
Really I should've switched it, and said "A girl doesn't have to have an orgasm to get pregnant." And I do agree with you but my focus was on when a girl and a guy have normal sexual intercourse... but hey, what's normal these days? It seems a lot of the set "Traditional" factors have changed, and thats very interesting to me.
"...enter female orgasm. it's not a coincidence, guy."
Regarding that whole thing, I don't disagree with any of it. I think it's actually a really valid point. Unfortunately, I sorta forgot what I was arguing so... okay?
[1] as i stated above, the orgasm DOES do several very big things to help along the process, one of them being that it gives people a reason to want to do it. and also, what point are you trying to make between orgasms and power? that is unclear to me.
Again, I was misinformed / talking about the fact it isn't guaranteed that girls will orgasm. Also, my point is unclear to myself, which tends to happen a lot. Again, this wasn't a work for arguing a point, this was a work for asking questions (And mostly to stimulate conversations like this, so thanks!).
Continuing on a second comment...
Reply
[2] trust me when i say, "you have a lot to learn about women." and any girls reading this, trust me when i say, "the way to fix that problem is not through your 'boyfriend' or whoever; it is through figuring out for yourself what works."
HAHAHA i might need another message length to respnd to this one... Mostly I was joking about the competent boyfriend, or rather using the word "competent" out of context. I know very well that as with personalities, sexually women are all varied and very different in what they like and what works for them. Hence, I do agree with your "figuring out for yourself what works."
The reason I chose "competent" was it sounded funnier and I try to make a joke whenever I feel like it. The word I would've chosen had I been serious would be "sensitive" and for the same reason as above: All women are different, and it takes a boyfriend who would be willing to work with his partner to figure out what works and to make sure her experience is as pleasurable as his. Personally, I am of that mindset, because to me sex is about showing your love and affection for one another in addition to anything it may have for you personally. Sure it's fun (typically, i mean, i wouldn't know but looking at the average...) but it's about partnership and it is (or should be) more selfless than selfish.
It took me so long to write that last bit that I sorta lost the way I wanted to word it so I did the best I could, feel free to ask me more about it.
And my last point on this one, the "You have a lot to learn about women," I won't be egotistical and disagree because yes, I do know I have a lot to learn, but I will say that based on the fact that I WAS kidding about the competent part, I'm sure that I know a little more than you think (or at least, thought) i did.
And again, every woman / girl is different, and whomever I choose to date / marry i will of course need to learn about, and in my case, I REALLY want to know them well, not in only a physical sense, but hopefully in a level much deeper than that. A truly emotional, intellectual, and mutual affection for one another. Because deep down, that's what we look for, right?
Well most of us. I HAVE met guys that want that and I HAVE met guys who don't. Same could be said, I'm sure, of girls.
Anyway, to finish off...
another excerpt: "It's interesting though that womens' pleasures are not even related to procreation." people who have commented have noted claims that the female orgasm can help ensure conception and, while that may be true, i still stick to what i've said above. also, here's something for you to ponder (since you hold the belief--unless something has changed--that the female orgasm is completely unrelated to procreation): the clitoris is the only organ in the human body whose sole purpose is pleasure.
And the research I have done (and most of it was before the fact, actually, which is sorta sad i didn't consider some things) says that there's no PROOF that the clitoris is the organ that causes orgasm, but it's highly likely. Most of my skepticism is that yes, all women are different, and therefore it is hard to pinpoint where exactly orgasms come from.
As strange as you (i'm assuming you're female) are all strange, and bizarre, and all so different from one another, you are all so interesting and all worth learning about.
Reply
- Was this sarcasm? You say you like how i said it, but... the oh-so-diplomatically a bit throws me.
Anyway, in my life I see my to-be-wife as a partner, and I hope that all that we decide will be mutual. I hope to marry for true love and not money, and I hope very much that it lasts (though we all know it's work, not hope, that keeps it together).
Considering I'm on my way to being a musician, I might not keep normal hours and therefore, maybe during the day I would have responsibility of the kids. There's nothing wrong with that. Should my wife decide to work OR to stay at home, I would support her either way. But no matter what, i just thought I would make the point that I believe it's sad that sometimes children have to have so much time away from their parents. Not that they don't have time with their parents at all, but i think it's sad teachers get maybe a couple months of leave and then they're back to work, be they male OR female (I had a male teacher who had a baby, his wife was also a teacher.)
"i don't have a formal wrap-up at all (my brain is a little too fried at this point), but i just wanted to say that i appreciate your willingness to make this a dialogue."
Again, i VERY much appreciate the fact you took the time to reply, I've enjoyed this chat, even though it was quite... spaced out? If you would like to reach me further, which i would love to hear more from you, you are free to at Jromega3@gmail.com, omega3mixer on aim, or facebook, I will give out my name via email. Again i got a LOT of good response on facebook as this article was doubled there. I found only select people seem to read my livejournal still, and with all the college friends i've gained, they have some input i love to hear on facebook, though it's harder to reply to them there.
I must go, my friend is bugging me to go to dinner, so I'll talk to you hopefully again sometime. Again, thank you!
Reply
i have to split this in two again...
thanks for clarifying some of those points. i'm starting to see a little better where you are coming from.
the majority of the first half of your comments i don't really feel the need to respond to... you pretty much wrapped up those points.
but, there are a few things i would like to say.
1.) i totally understood that you were joking about the "competent boyfriend" thing. i merely wanted to make sure to point out for anyone (ladies in particular) who doesn't know that you can't count on your partner (at least at first) to figure out or know how to get you off. that comes from knowing your body and understanding how it works, and then communicating that to your partner. you can't get that knowledge of your own body from another person. this is a really big deal for girls.
while there is a certain amount of pressure on guys not to masturbate, it is pretty much accepted that they, by and large, do. there might be a bit of a slap on the wrist (or something more severe, depending on upbringing, religion, etc.) for appearances, but it is generally understood and accepted that boys/men masturbate.
girls on the other hand....... as you said, you (and most of this society) didn't think they "do that kind of thing." i believe this society's--and many others'--view of female masturbation comes from a deep, deep fear of female sexuality, but that's another (enormous) discussion altogether.
...i'm trying to make a point here, and i think i might need to tell a quick story to get there, so bear with me.
i was talking a few years ago to a group of teenage girls. one of them was talking about an older (probably 20s) girl she knew. she told us that this older friend of hers is heavily pierced and even has (actual quote-->) "random parts of her vagina pierced." i was stunned. yes, they can pierce damn near anything these days (uvulas included), but this indicated to me that a problem i was already aware of is much worse than i thought. this teenage girl was seriously lacking knowledge about her own anatomy. as a guy you may have a difficult time understanding what i'm about to say and what it does to a girl/woman's psyche, but i think it's important for guys to hear about this as well. girls are taught--overtly and covertly--that getting their period is gross; that what is between their legs is territory that is not to be explored by anyone but their husband and not until their wedding night; that nice girls don't touch themselves; that, essentially, the women of the world are divided up into three groups--virgins, whores, and mothers--and "i don't think you need me to tell you which you don't want to be"; etc., etc., etc. do you get what i'm saying? we are taught to fear and loathe our bodies.
there is so much to say about this issue, and i don't have the time or energy right now to really get into it, so i will simply make a recommendation: read betty dodson. read her work, read about her. she is amazing. her most famous book is called sex for one: the joy of self-loving, which i highly recommend. but you should also, like i said, read about her. did you know that there are some sexologists/sex therapists out there that hold masturbation workshops? there are!! you'll probably find her quite interesting.
1.a.) another book i think you should probably read is cunt by inga muscio. as margaret cho said, "everyone who was born out of one needs to read cunt."
1.b.) i'm sure it's abundantly clear by now, but since i haven't stated it for the record: yes, i am female. (i'm lesley's sister, emily... i hope that doesn't make this discussion awkward for anyone.)
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2.) i didn't say that the clitoris is "the organ that causes the orgasm." i said that is the only organ whose sole function is pleasure. it's not an opposable thumb, we don't pee out of it, it doesn't help our balance. yes, it contributes to the orgasm (most women need clitoral and vaginal stimulation to achieve an orgasm) and, yes, every woman is different, but the clit is only there for pleasure. personally, i think that's pretty amazing. and all the more reason to (as immature and frat-boyish as it sounds) respect the clit.
3.) in regards to the "oh-so-diplomatically" comment. i really didn't mean that to be a direct dis to you, so i apologize that it came across as such. it's just that that particular statement is one of the ones that you hear lots of men say... without being completely sure they are in earnest. i mean, it's pretty easy to say the thing that you think someone wants to hear when you feel quite confident it'll never come to that.
3.a.) as far as children not getting optimal amounts of time with their parents... i think that has more to do with our society's obsession with work than anything. look at our work week and vacation allowances compared to those of other countries. it's insane. children are so incredibly important, and i wholeheartedly agree that it would be better if parents had the opportunity to spend more time with their kids.
so... yeah. that's pretty much all i have in response to your response to my response. if you get some time and happen to read either of the books i mentioned, let me know.
talk to you later.
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And don't worry not awkward at all.
I just might check it out, but the looks i'll get when buying the book will be priceless ^_^
anyway, thanks, looking forward to reading your next half-response...
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"i don't have a formal wrap-up at all (my brain is a little too fried at this point), but i just wanted to say that i appreciate your willingness to make this a dialogue."
And I would like to thank you in kind for your criticisms. This is exactly what I was hoping for (and had more success with on Facebook than here, apart from your response). I dunno if it was mentioned much in the article, but I was more interested in throwing these ideas out there, not proving anything. Most of me is "observations" which i might try to make seem like "assertions", and i'm quoting for, really i dunno why.
And yes, Trophy wives was the parallel given to me by someone else whom i had read the entire writing. So the questions I was mainly trying to answer, 1. Are women treated as objects in a nice way? Yes, IE Trophy wives, and 2. Does this mean that I personally treat them as objects? And for me the answer is no, because I don't regard them as either trophy wives or anything like that, I believe they are equal partners in terms of our relationship. The main conclusion I came to with my friend talking to me about this is that women are objectified if no respect is given to the fact that they have their own ideas, dreams, hopes, and their own soul.
And I'm not really making a point, i'm just making the point of asking the questions.
And I did avoid the LGBTQ couples, not for any reason except that I'm only specifically looking at male-female relationships. I have no quarrels with or against them, i just chose not to write about them. I'll continue more in response to your next article.
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